Matrix

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "JAJ" <member23519@british_expats.com> wrote
    > \
    > > Another option you may have is to apply for a US passport. You can't
    > > get a green card if you're a US citizen.
    > I was told that they ask the same parameters of identification now with
the
    > US birth certificate to get a US Passport. INS (or whatever they call it
    > now) said they (the passport people) use the same requirements. This was
    > said by one agent and I do not know if correct as I have gotten
conflicting
    > info.
    > > If you have problems dealing with the CIS (or whatever the INS is ca-
    > > lled nowadays) or the State Dept, get in touch with your Congressman
    > > or Senator.
    > That is exactly what I did. I was in my Congressmans office and an
employee
    > took copies of my mother's and father's Naturization documents. The
employee
    > was rather quick and I suggested them and she asked for no more. I did
sign
    > a disclosure to investigate or get information on me. It seems to me the
    > Congressman's office would need a lot more, like proof they are my
parents,
    > photo ids from the past and miscellaneous supporting documents.
    > I got a pro forma letter from the office a few days later. Perhaps I
should
    > contact them again and ask if they need more documents.
    > What is annoying and some may have no sympathy about rates considering
    > others' expense with the INS, but if I file a 600 it will cost me 240
    > dollars and God knows when it will be processed. My license will cost
about
    > 50 - so the total cost of 290 dollars *to renew* my driver's license, from
    > the point of view of someone WHO IS a US citizen, me --that is an
atrocious
    > fine for not having a simple verification that is official.
    > Like I said, in the Motor Vehicles department there seems to be no one
that
    > can make a judgement call on the documents based on intelligent prudence,
    > even a high official, but goes down a list of requirements. Since, this
is
    > all new law that has not been perfected or corrected yet, seems like I
have
    > fell in the cracks.
    > I am just glad I do not have 5 kids or a big mortgage or I could be losing
    > my home over this since I can't drive to work, and apparently, there is no
    > tool to resolve it quickly available to the citizen public through a court
    > or same-day/soon day interview/investigation personally at the INS.
    > Basically they, it seems to me, are putting US citizens through the same
    > rigors and que as a person newly applying from another country for a
missing
    > piece of paper, that was suggested at the time of Naturalization of the
    > parents that additional papers are unnecessary and the "kids are
automatic".
    > Harry


In this time and age it is highly prudent for everyone to make the best
effort to acquire some type of valid document to prove citizenship. After
all these years, knowing that you were not born in the US and therefore did
not have a US Birth certificate, I find it hard to understand why you were
not even able to apply for a Certificate of Naturalization if you really did
qualify to derive citizenship when your parents naturalized. Of course when
you were still a minor you probably didn't know about it, but during the
past 45 years...sigh.....it is inconceivable for anyone that you never even
thought or made an effort about getting one.
Anybody with a decent degree of maturity and common sense would understand
why documentary evidence is required for security and other vital purposes.
When you apply for a benefit, especially when abuses and fraud are rampant,
in spite of all supposedly strict requirements, it is tantamount to
negligence for the system not demand solid documentary evidence for
qualification.
You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right--to
require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to look
at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your responsibility
as expected.

scrubbedexpat099

Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the sort of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.

My Brother worked for Chase Manhatten in their New York office 10 or so years ago, one of his American colleagues had to go to their Japanese office and did not realise until the very last moment that he needed a passport. You think how could this be?

I have been to my Wife's annual family reunion several times, more than a hundred people there, going out of State is a big issue, the only one I know except my wife who have been out of the US were in the Military, a posting in Guantamano Bay and the other one was in Submarines so I am not sure if that counts.

Harry

"Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > > You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right--
    > > -to
    > > require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to
    > > look
    > > at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your respons-
    > > ibility
    > > as expected.
    > Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the so-
    > rt of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.


Exactly.

Not having any knowledge of the red-tape of the system and never needing it
and knowing I was an automatic citizen through my parents naturalization I
wrongly assumed a common sense way of proving it, that is not the case if
it ever came up.

1. I was an automatic citizen (that INS confirms) at my parents
naturalization.

2. I show for evidence, my parents original naturailization papers

3. I *prove* who I am and my age at my parents naturaliaztion time and that
I have resided permanently in the United States.

My documents clearly *prove* this with multple sources and redundancy.
Frankly, I don't know what the INS would need more than that. I don't know,
being a US citizen, why this could not be handled, in my case, by a single
interview, leaving with something from that interview with all the right
documents.

But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system. That
is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS in
1963 that "your children are automatic."

BUT and a BIG BUT: something may have been stamped on my child-passport -
but very well might not of - why I am seeking it.

History has proven over and over again the US government agencies are
inefficient and have a proclivity for growth with said inefficiency, in my
opinion. Look at the CIA with the intelligence offered in recent years.

I will give you another example of US entities: The US Post Office. My son
who left my home moved elsewhere when he could afford it. He has the same
name except the middle initial. *ALL* of my mail then did not come to MY
house for ME. I called the Post Office, they said, "sorry but our computers
only read the first 5 letters and this is a problem with households with
same names or Juniors."

I spoke to the Postmaster who told me I will have to wait for one year for
the problem to go away BUT denied there was even a problem, just "one of
those things" and got indignant when I suggestted to fix it. He will "put an
note for my carrier", but if there is a standin, "mistakes will happen." His
managers did concur there is a problem in the PO with this. Every 60 days or
so I get them to manually remove the address change from the computer that
will only last 60 days because it then 'corrects' itself automatically.
This will last one year.

Astoundingly, they also do not even ask for ID when changing addresses in
most POs.

Sorry for going off topic but making a point.

Harry

Harry

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote

    > But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system.
That
    > is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS
in
    > 1963 that "your children are automatic."

I meant, .and my parents were wrongly told by the INS in1963 that,
"you children are automatic and need no document processing."

Harry

Sylvia Ottemoeller

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > "Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > > > You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right
to
    > > > require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to
look
    > > > at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your
responsibility
    > > > as expected.

    > > Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the
sort of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.

    > Exactly.
    > Not having any knowledge of the red-tape of the system and never needing
it
    > and knowing I was an automatic citizen through my parents naturalization I
    > wrongly assumed a common sense way of proving it, that is not the case if
    > it ever came up.
    > 1. I was an automatic citizen (that INS confirms) at my parents
    > naturalization.
    > 2. I show for evidence, my parents original naturailization papers
    > 3. I *prove* who I am and my age at my parents naturaliaztion time and
that
    > I have resided permanently in the United States.
    > My documents clearly *prove* this with multple sources and redundancy.

If you have your parents' naturalization certificates, and your birth
certificate showing they are your parents, and evidence of your U.S.
permanent resident status (not just that you "resided permanently" in the
U.S.), then you can apply for a U.S. passport.

It seems to me that the key missing document is evidence of your permanent
resident status. This is where the Congressperson's office should be able
to help you. There are databases in which someone can find your A number by
searching under your name. The Congressperson's case worker should call his
or her contact at a USCIS Congressional Liaison Unit (and every USCIS office
has such a unit), and ask the person to look up your A number.

If you are not getting enough help from the Congressperson's office, I
suggest you go there in person and sit there, politely requesting help,
until you get what you need. You should write and hand in a one-page letter
to the Congressperson requesting specific assistance, and describing the
hardship of being without a driver's license. Don't hold back on the
humanitarian angle. Go in the morning and sit for hours if necessary. They
will do something.

The N-600 is the proper form to file for the most solid evidence of
citizenship. If my child received "automatic citizenship" in the way you
did, I would certainly obtain a Certificate of Citizenship. N-600 usually
take a very long time from filing to approval -- it used to take almost 2
years.

    > Frankly, I don't know what the INS would need more than that. I don't
know,
    > being a US citizen, why this could not be handled, in my case, by a
single
    > interview, leaving with something from that interview with all the right
    > documents.
    > But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system.
That
    > is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS
in
    > 1963 that "your children are automatic."
    > BUT and a BIG BUT: something may have been stamped on my child-passport -
    > but very well might not of - why I am seeking it.

If the same procedure was followed then as today, then yes, a stamp would
have been placed in your passport, with your A number, as temporary evidence
of permanent resident status, valid for one year. You also should have
received the actual green card in the mail.

Harry

Found something interesting in my in parents passport.

In the "VISAS" page in my parents passport that contains both their pictures

Dated June 6th 1957 <page that has the word 'VISAS' printed on the top> it
has "Immigrant Visa" checked with an "X", in the line where it says "Quota"
is handwritten "GB". In the "No." line after "Quota" is four (there were
four of us) handwriten 5 digit numbers.

Example handwritten: XXXXX <these number are sequencial>
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX


It has a stamp, "US Department of Justice ADMITTED" June 30th 1957

Then handwritten under that from the original VISA

"Includes wife & 2 children

(mother's name)
(older brother's name)
My names

Is this my VISA and if it is and it states 'immigrant' (permanent) could
this page be used with the motor vehicles as my immigrant VISA with further
proof of them being my parents? (will, other documents)

Thanks for all the replys.

Harry

Sylvia Ottemoeller

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Found something interesting in my in parents passport.
    > In the "VISAS" page in my parents passport that contains both their
pictures
    > Dated June 6th 1957 <page that has the word 'VISAS' printed on the top> it
    > has "Immigrant Visa" checked with an "X", in the line where it says
"Quota"
    > is handwritten "GB". In the "No." line after "Quota" is four (there were
    > four of us) handwriten 5 digit numbers.
    > Example handwritten: XXXXX <these number are sequencial>
    > XXXXX
    > XXXXX
    > XXXXX
    > It has a stamp, "US Department of Justice ADMITTED" June 30th 1957
    > Then handwritten under that from the original VISA
    > "Includes wife & 2 children
    > (mother's name)
    > (older brother's name)
    > My names
    > Is this my VISA and if it is and it states 'immigrant' (permanent) could
    > this page be used with the motor vehicles as my immigrant VISA with
further
    > proof of them being my parents? (will, other documents)

Just to clarify the terminology:

The stamp is not a visa, or visas. Remember, "visa" means something like
"permission to ask to enter the U.S. in a particular category." However the
5 digit numbers are probably visa numbers, showing that your immigration was
counted toward the quota for that year.

An immigrant visa is a thick sealed envelope which is issued by the U.S.
consular post in the process of consular immigrant visa processing. The
recipient of the visa goes to the port of entry to the U.S., and is
processed, and becomes a permanent resident of the U.S., and receives a
stamp in the passport as *evidence* of the permanent resident status.

The 5 digit numbers are not really relevant to you at the present time.
They are used for numerical accounting in the categories of immigration. In
addition to this ephemeral visa number, you should have a longer, unique A
number in USCIS databases.

This document is evidence that you obtained permanent resident status. It
may or may not be good enough for the application for a U.S. passport.

JAJ

The other thought I have is to take things up at a higher level with the state DMV, to see if they can issue you a drivers licence based on the evidence that's currently available.

You still need to get your US citizenship properly documented, but not having a drivers licence is an urgent problem in the meantime.

Often people at a sufficiently senior level in bureaucracies *do* have authority to give concessions in special cases. Even if it was nothing more than a temporary licences for a few months, it would help.

If you can't get in touch with someone sufficiently senior directly, or they are unhelpful, have a work with a friendly local member of your *state* legislature.

Jeremy

Mikko Peltoniemi

Harry wrote:

    > Starting this year all were told to go to a Motor Vehicle Agency with a
    > point system giving various documents different points. The birth

This point system really baffles me. For example, the NYS DMV didn't
accept both my passport and my Green Card as proof of identity.

On the website it says "You cannot use more than one document of a
specific type for points". But nowhere are the document types
listed. I wouldn't list an INS document and a passport in the
same category. But I guess that's just me, and what I think really
doesn't count, does it.

Anyway, also what's weird to me is that, how come a out-of-state
license, a green card and a passport all worth less points than
a NYS license? To me, all these three are as reliable, or even
more reliable proofs of identity than a NYS driver's license.

Actually, according to the point system, all of them combined
are worth less than an in-state driver's license. (Assuming
that only passport or green card are accepted, but not both)

Oh well...

And I did have a question too; do driver's licenses expire with
immigration status? I think there were plans for it, but did
the plans get implemented?

And also, if a lincese is supposed to expire with status, but
the license has an expiration date somewhere in the future,
which one is applied? The date on the license, or the date of
expiration of status? And furthermore, does this affect licenses
that were issued before this law (if there is such a law) was
passed?

--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://editor.is.dreaming.org

Nomadic Existence

NJ does now, I foolishly (although probably legally required) surrendered my nice CA driving license, for a mickey mouse NJ one last December. CA one expired June next year, the NJ one was valid until May this year. Normally such changes are never backdated, but implicitly, a license is only valid while you're resident in a given state (probably...)

New NJ licenses are much better, but the CA ones still look much better.

Musashi

"Mikko Peltoniemi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<SNIP>
    > And I did have a question too; do driver's licenses expire with
    > immigration status? I think there were plans for it, but did
    > the plans get implemented?
    > And also, if a lincese is supposed to expire with status, but
    > the license has an expiration date somewhere in the future,
    > which one is applied? The date on the license, or the date of
    > expiration of status? And furthermore, does this affect licenses
    > that were issued before this law (if there is such a law) was
    > passed?

That depends on the state. New Jersey I understand has made the D/L validity
match the immigration status date. There was a newspaper article a while ago
describing the troubles this wsa causing for all the legal immigrants in NJ.
New York, on the other hand, has not and the expiration date of the D/L
takes
precendence over the immigration status date.

Mikko Peltoniemi

Nomadic Existence wrote:

    > NJ does now, I foolishly (although probably legally required) surrender-
    > ed my nice CA driving license, for a mickey mouse NJ one last December.
    > CA one expired June next year, the NJ one was valid until May this year.
    > Normally such changes are never backdated, but implicitly, a license is
    > only valid while you're resident in a given state (probably...)

Yeah, this is pretty much I figured it goes. I was just wondering,
because I had a CA license, and I tried to get a NY license, and the
first clerk would've made me take the whole test (written+road) again.

I was so amazed, that I didn't even complain at first, until after
taking the written test (and passing it ;), I asked the second clerk
and his opinion was that I didn't have to take the test. Hopefully it's
right this time, and no-one will be asking me to take the test anymore.

I had a valid CA license, though my immigration status had changed
recently, and now I have a green card. So I thought they tried to make
me take the test because of this.

But still I think it says on the website that not only are valid
out-of-state licenses accepted, but recently expired as well.

--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://editor.is.dreaming.org

Harry

"Mikko Peltoniemi" <[email protected]> wrote

> Yeah, this is pretty much I figured it goes. I was just wondering,
    > because I had a CA license, and I tried to get a NY license, and the
    > first clerk would've made me take the whole test (written+road) again.
    > I was so amazed, that I didn't even complain at first, until after
    > taking the written test (and passing it ;), I asked the second clerk
    > and his opinion was that I didn't have to take the test. Hopefully it's
    > right this time, and no-one will be asking me to take the test anymore.
    > I had a valid CA license, though my immigration status had changed
    > recently, and now I have a green card. So I thought they tried to make
    > me take the test because of this.
    > But still I think it says on the website that not only are valid
    > out-of-state licenses accepted, but recently expired as well.

First of all as far as the Motor Vehicle Agencies in NJ are concerned: I
went to 3 and got 3 different answers and attitudes. The first agency almost
gave me my license and was trying to make phone calls to get some assurance
to give it to me. The second agency just brushed me off to go to a Regional
Center. The Regional Center did not even look at my documents but told me to
"get a Green Card" which is impossible for a US citizen to get.
That is how dumb the system is. The first agency was nice and trying to be
helpful.

The first person who processed me at the first agency approved my
credentials. Unfortunately, I walked back up with my form filled out at the
wrong time when a, I guess, manager was standing next to him and he said, "I
am going to accept this birth certificate from England." The manager
replied, "oh no! you can't do that!!" Then it went up to the Director of
that agency who was most, actually, helpful trying to do it and trying to
get some kind of approval. She asked me to stop back when I ironed out the
problem to tell her what I had learned to do. Probably in order to help
other citizens in this situation.

The Director in the Regional Center was a moron who told me get a Green Card
and did not even want to look at my documents and didn't and quickly
dismissed me.

Someone mentioned seeing a Congressman. I did that the day after my problem
a couple of weeks ago in person and spoke to their office on the phone
yesterday. I spoke about an hour to a staff assistant that handles this and
I was amazed when he was telling me of a lot of citizens with this problem
and without naming names, obviously, told me a few case studies of what was
done. This has been a mess for US Naturalized people unless every 'p' and
'q' in their documents is perfect - still after 50 or 60 years.

One example he was mentioning of those that have particular difficulty is
Korean War GI-brides and children born in Korea of such who were transported
to the US via the Military transport system of that day and have no record
of entry. Seems like the citizens with the biggest problems are those in the
50s or 60s era. Told me a story of one case of that and how it barely went
through with a LOT of work.

Also mentioned one or two that were trying to straighten this out nearly
came to deportation and mentioned deportation judges are not really fair
judges but line by line 'cut and dried' without much bending - if a case
ever got that far and serious.

I discussed some documents and are making copies to be sent to his office.
The way it is going to be approached is for me to get a US passport for
quicker enablement of the credentials for my driver's license. I will be
applying for a US passport. That, I would like to have anyway. I should have
a US passport. If I am rejected then I am going to have my case taken up
for help.

After reading some of the horror stories here about overseas US Consuls and
Embassies, if it were possible and I were going out of the country, it may
be a good idea to get a British passport, at a later date also, since I was
born in England before being naturalized. Considering how absurd the system
is here (speaking about INS), I have a gut feeling if somehow I got in
trouble overseas though unlikely, I would probably get more help from the
British Embassy. I don't know anything about this, so if that is wrong or
illegal, obviously I would not do it finding out.

Harry

JAJ

You can get a British passport anytime you like but given the difficulties with proving your status in the US, I would suggest you don't leave the US for any reason until this is sorted out and you have a US passport issued.

Jeremy

Harry

"codyVA" <member27336@british_expats.com> wrote

    > I can't believe you haven't been on Oprah yet :) Keep us posted cause I
    > really want to know how does it end up. Good luck again.

OK, I will give one update for now . . obviously for privacy of the
people reasons, I will not name any people or person's by name who have, or
will, help me if I get help. I went to the local Passport people in a
local Mall and filled out an application for a US passport.

The 'County Clerk' employee who took the application told me that she does
not know if it will go through or not. I gave them both of my parents'
Naturalization, original, papers and their passport from 1957 along with a
couple of photo IDs, education document, and 'sticky-noted' the passport in
the two places that show my name along with the "ADMITTED" stamp from 1957.
Showing I was manifested on that UK Passport.

The Clerk did tell me something interesting: that in some cases the US
Passport Agency (or past Passport Agency as the Homeland Security laws
change all the time) she said, will approve a passport of a person claiming
citizenship with overwhelming evidence, without waiting the year or less to
process the N-600 form BY receiving a 'receipt" from INS that the N-600 IS
in due process, perhaps a receipt of the fee paid.

I still do not have my 'A' number though that would require a search.
Someone told me that it may not be findable from 1957. I believe the N -600
can/will be rejected without an 'A' number. But If I can get my driver's
license renewed, who cares?, I can handle this later IF they do accept my
N-600 application and give me a receipt - IF - that comes up.

I got the 'fast expedite' SO if it is rejected I can now work with my local
Congressman's office as soon as possible to get my driver's license renewed
or attempt to. The Passport Agency advised me that it was not necessary that
if they rejected it, they may send a letter of rejection anyway before the
"6 weeks or so" of normal expedite. Nevertheless, I got the 'fast expedite'
of the Passport to bring my attempt to a conclusion faster. Also, they asked
me for my license. Moments later they said, "this license is expired!!!"
(but still asked me to sign the back as I forgot to sign it- that is a 55
dollar fine here in NJ - strange that they asked me to sign a driver's
license that was expired). I gave them a couple of photo ID's, one as far
back as my High School Identification card. I told them THAT is why I am
also seeking a Passport to get my driver's license renewed PLUS I want one
(that is true).

She mentioned that she has seen cases even worst than mine with less
documents where people have gotten US Passports - one case she mentioned was
a person who never knew her US born father from overseas, he became deceased
and somehow she got all his papers and presented them. In my case, I have
TWO Naturalized parents at the age of around 11 (1963) THAT at the time as a
child I was told I was *automatically* a citizen and this is true but as one
INS employee said when I asked in this problem if I should stop voting as it
is a Federal crime to vote as a non-citizen because of my lack of a child
document: "No, continue to vote, you ARE a citizen it is just your problem
is having a document to show." (to repeat)

I am told that if there is a problem I will get a letter in 7 to 10 days
from the Passport people. THEN, if rejected I will take it up with my
Congressman's staff employee. If approved I will get the passport itself, I
think, in about 10 days to 2 weeks.

I will post another update, without naming anyone or identifying anyone that
gave me help except general descriptions, obviously. You never know, it
might be possible (though not likely) that ' a string could be pulled
somewhere' and the person I am sure would not like to be identified.

Harry