Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Hi,

I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.

I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years later my
parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told that my
citizenship was "automatic".

Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my birth
certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization papers
(both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my residency.

One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card". All
this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since Kindergarten.

I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see if it
has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.

I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like to
worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.

A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on paper so
I can renew my license?


The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but you
have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with various
other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Naturalization
papers, that should be enough but it isn't.

Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed without the
INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I use my
British birth certificate to get a British passport.

This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in November?"
and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you ARE a
citizen but just don't have the papers."

I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of information Act"
search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passport, if I
can find it?

Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the phones
seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.

Thanks for any reply.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Hi:

Get a US passport.

File an N-600 with CIS.

Also, if you can prove you have been continuously resident since before 1972, "registry" is an option.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Hi,
    > I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.
    > I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years later my
    > parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told that my
    > citizenship was "automatic".
    > Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my birth
    > certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization papers
    > (both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my residency.
    > One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card". All
    > this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since
Kindergarten.
    > I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see if it
    > has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.
    > I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like to
    > worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.
    > A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on paper
so
    > I can renew my license?
    > The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but you
    > have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with various
    > other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Naturalization
    > papers, that should be enough but it isn't.
    > Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed without the
    > INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I use my
    > British birth certificate to get a British passport.
    > This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in
November?"
    > and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you ARE a
    > citizen but just don't have the papers."
    > I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
    > citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of information
Act"
    > search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passport, if
I
    > can find it?
    > Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the phones
    > seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.
    > Thanks for any reply.
    > Harry

You need to refer your case with somebody familiar with Nationality Chart #
3 ( Derivative Citizenship of Children)

A child may derive citizenship during historical periods if such child was
under the statutory age AND:
(a) the child was lawfully admitted for permanent residence AND
(b) the parent(s) naturalized. It does not matter in which order the actions
occurred.

For periods in which the last action took place, on or after 12/24/1952 &
prior to 10/5/1978, child became an LPR before the statutory age of 18
years, parent(s) naturalized prior to the statutory age of the child and
child was unmarried.

If all the conditions happened on your case during the time frame 12/24/1952
through 10/5/1978 then you derived citizenship. Your responsibility now is
to provide solid evidence that those events applied in your case. Remember,
the law states that the burden of proof is on you to prove your nationality
in order for a US passport or Certificate of Citizenship to be issued.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Folinskyinla" <member4043@british_expats.com> wrote
    > Hi:
    > Get a US passport.
    > File an N-600 with CIS.
    > Also, if you can prove you have been continuously resident since before
    > 1972, "registry" is an option.

Thanks for the information. When I got through on the phone once to an
agent, she mentioned (and I have gotten constantly conflicting information)
That I would have to file a G639 form that is actually a Freedom of
Information Act inquiry form. Then mentioned an "I-90" (that I did not find
in the list of online forms) and suggested that the G639 was to find my "A
number" from 1957.

My goal obviously is to have my driver license renewed. (and have permanent
papers but the license issue is the most pressing) The situation I am in is
that de facto, my driver's license has been revoked until I present more
documents (really disingenuous I might add to US citizens may not have saved
papers from *50* years ago without a body or court where information can be
presented for prompt scrutiny other than general INS applications that may
take months) Luckily, I have both my parents Naturization Documents with
their picture from 1963. (They may have been swore in months earlier than
that but that is the date of the document).

So, I am trying to wade through the conflicting information and take the
fastest track to any document that would be the quickest one to get, so I
may renew my driver's license.

The Agent suggested that my N-600 application may not be accepted without an
"A number". Should I include copies of such as my US Military Draft
registration card, records from elementary school, and various things
showing I was a permanent resident? I have my original Social Security card
from around 1968 or 1969. I have my name hand written in their UK passport
showing I was with them plus a manifest of name in a kept list of
passengers, with my name, on a ship Queen Elizabeth, (misspelled by one
letter) in 1957?
If I file a form N-600 should I make copies of all this and other evidence I
was in the USA?

Secondly, how long does this all take? Unfortunately, I can't drive to work
while this is all going on so it has also made me somewhat unemployed. Would
it be faster to try to get a 'Green Card' or something like that? How long
does that take? Then later the N-600?

If by chance anyone does cite a law, I would appreciate having the number or
title of the law for my reference - unavailable or a task to find - that is
OK as I still appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks again,

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Which may be downloaded from:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/CCANationality3.pdf

Jeremy

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"matrix" <[email protected]> wrote

    > You need to refer your case with somebody familiar with Nationality Chart
#
    > 3 ( Derivative Citizenship of Children)
    > A child may derive citizenship during historical periods if such child was
    > under the statutory age AND:
    > (a) the child was lawfully admitted for permanent residence AND
    > (b) the parent(s) naturalized. It does not matter in which order the
actions
    > occurred.
    > For periods in which the last action took place, on or after 12/24/1952 &
    > prior to 10/5/1978, child became an LPR before the statutory age of 18
    > years, parent(s) naturalized prior to the statutory age of the child and
    > child was unmarried.
    > If all the conditions happened on your case during the time frame
12/24/1952
    > through 10/5/1978 then you derived citizenship. Your responsibility now is
    > to provide solid evidence that those events applied in your case.
Remember,
    > the law states that the burden of proof is on you to prove your
nationality
    > in order for a US passport or Certificate of Citizenship to be issued.

Absolutely, the condition happened in my case during this frame of time of
12/24/1952
and way before 10/5/1978.

Thank you very much for your reply also. Perhaps most useful are the dates
and the suggestion to be referred to someone familiar with Chart 3.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Another option you may have is to apply for a US passport. You can't get a green card if you're a US citizen.

If you have problems dealing with the CIS (or whatever the INS is called nowadays) or the State Dept, get in touch with your Congressman or Senator.

One final piece of advice - don't leave the US until you've sorted out your US citizenship/passport documentation.

Jeremy

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"JAJ" <member23519@british_expats.com> wrote
\
    > Another option you may have is to apply for a US passport. You can't
    > get a green card if you're a US citizen.

I was told that they ask the same parameters of identification now with the
US birth certificate to get a US Passport. INS (or whatever they call it
now) said they (the passport people) use the same requirements. This was
said by one agent and I do not know if correct as I have gotten conflicting
info.

    > If you have problems dealing with the CIS (or whatever the INS is ca-
    > lled nowadays) or the State Dept, get in touch with your Congressman
    > or Senator.

That is exactly what I did. I was in my Congressmans office and an employee
took copies of my mother's and father's Naturization documents. The employee
was rather quick and I suggested them and she asked for no more. I did sign
a disclosure to investigate or get information on me. It seems to me the
Congressman's office would need a lot more, like proof they are my parents,
photo ids from the past and miscellaneous supporting documents.

I got a pro forma letter from the office a few days later. Perhaps I should
contact them again and ask if they need more documents.

What is annoying and some may have no sympathy about rates considering
others' expense with the INS, but if I file a 600 it will cost me 240
dollars and God knows when it will be processed. My license will cost about
50 - so the total cost of 290 dollars *to renew* my driver's license, from
the point of view of someone WHO IS a US citizen, me --that is an atrocious
fine for not having a simple verification that is official.

Like I said, in the Motor Vehicles department there seems to be no one that
can make a judgement call on the documents based on intelligent prudence,
even a high official, but goes down a list of requirements. Since, this is
all new law that has not been perfected or corrected yet, seems like I have
fell in the cracks.

I am just glad I do not have 5 kids or a big mortgage or I could be losing
my home over this since I can't drive to work, and apparently, there is no
tool to resolve it quickly available to the citizen public through a court
or same-day/soon day interview/investigation personally at the INS.
Basically they, it seems to me, are putting US citizens through the same
rigors and que as a person newly applying from another country for a missing
piece of paper, that was suggested at the time of Naturalization of the
parents that additional papers are unnecessary and the "kids are automatic".

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

On the other hand the only document you may have proving Citizenship is a defunct British passport.

You are from another country, not sure why you should expect special priveleges on the basis of time.

And yes I am sure you could get your UK passport renewed, probably a lot quicker than you will find the US system. You have to renounce UK citizenship, it does not lapse and even then I think you can get it reinstated.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > You are from another country, not sure why you should expect special pr-
    > iveleges on the basis of time.

I beg to differ and thanks for the reply. I still have my draft card and
took my preinduction physical to go to Vietnam where I was not called. I
have paid US taxes for decades. Including State and Property taxes for
decades.

From Kindergarten I have gone to US schools. I had no consciousness of life
at all in the UK or very little. Biologically where I left the womb you are
correct but I am as American as anyone I know born here. I have been a
citizen for almost 50 years but have a document problem right now.

I beg to differ, a person (who is a citizen) of my status and other
naturalized citizens should be treated with the same expediency as any
natural born citizen, in my opinion. Though that is not to denigrate aliens
who are put through rigors with inefficient government agencies (typically)
. Though, I understand the seriousness of the climate today.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > On the other hand the only document you may have proving Citizenship is
    > a defunct British passport.

Though I saw my child, defunct British passport last year after making a
rigorous search (and still searching) I fear it lost.

I DO have my parents passports from 1957 that have a hand-written reference
to their two children and naming such with my name appearing in their
passport. I do not know what my older brother in this situation is doing as
unfortunately we are estranged.


Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

I am sure when I was a child I was in my Mothers passport, I did not have my own, so it could be that you never had one. I do not think it was usual for Children to have their own, I will ask my Mother. I think it was an extra page they stuck in?.

If you do want to get your UK Passport I am sure that you could with little fuss,
http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/, but I guess that is not really the issue.

There have been many many posts from US Citizens bemoaning the USCIS, it after all impacts on the sponsor as well as the sponsee. Whilst '911' is the convenient factor, for the majority I have seen this has had little or no bearing on the delay factor. I do not know why everything takes so long, seems to be a broke and understaffed system.

You occasionally see questions from immigrants who have lost documents but most who have been through the mill are too aware to mislay such documents, more likely that the persons in your queue are also US Citizens.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

just from couriosity how did you renew your DL before? At my knowledge you supposed to do it every 5 years (or shorter period). If you did do it, DMV should have a record of that. You also mention something about voting. Do you have your voting card? If you do that is proof of you citizenship. Only US citizens can vote! anyway goodluck with your case.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"codyVA" <member27336@british_expats.com> wrote

    > just from curiosity how did you renew your DL before?

In New Jersey they simply send you a form that you mail in previously.
Starting this year all were told to go to a Motor Vehicle Agency with a
point system giving various documents different points. The birth
certificate said that it has to be a US, sealed certificate, but has equal
points or close to equal for a Naturalization document and a couple other
documents like a passport or military ID.

An ironic side note to this is that the Governor of New Jersey is stepping
down in scandal after giving a position to an alien who was his gay lover
(not a comment about sexuality) to HEAD Homeland Security for $110,000
dollars a year who had no credentials or training on security that he said
he was being "blackmailed" by (and refused to step down now until 9/3 so
another election via State constitution does not happen placing his man in
the Governor’s seat - people on both parties have asked him to step down
now)

    > At my knowledge you supposed to do it every 5 years (or shorter period).
If you did do
    > it, DMV should have a record of that.

They don't care how long you have had your license. I went to 3 Motor
Vehicle agencies.
One told me I need a Green Card, yet, posted here, someone said a citizen
cannot get a Green Card.

    > You also mention something about voting. Do you have your voting card? If
you do that > > is proof of you citizenship. Only US citizens can vote!
anyway good luck with your case.

There is no voting card. You are on record in your town as a voter and
registered in a Party or Independent. The local town automatically sends you
out a sample ballot on every election. When you vote (in my locale) you sign
a book that has your name signed multiple times from previously voting
earlier elections.

About the person who commented he had no child passport: I have seen my
passport about a year ago. I had family in my house (my 30 year old American
born son) temporarily and lot of things got moved around

I am still in search of this on a daily basis until all possibilities and
place are thoroughly searched in my house. My house contains about 45 years
of brick-a-brack and many boxes and storage cases. I am taking the
opportunity also to clean out the entire house looking for the passport.

My fear is that it was accidentally thrown out. Though, I do not believe the
passport is absolutely needed, but may make things easier. My parents
passport has BOTH on the same passport with a reference to me and named,
written by hand in an entry on one sheet of the passport. My other fear is
that (and I did not look at it thoroughly when I found it last year) it may
have an "A" number on it or even a stamped "US citizen" that may be as great
help for information.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

I can't believe you haven't been on Oprah yet :) Keep us posted cause I really want to know how does it end up. Good luck again.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "JAJ" <member23519@british_expats.com> wrote
    > \
    > > Another option you may have is to apply for a US passport. You can't
    > > get a green card if you're a US citizen.
    > I was told that they ask the same parameters of identification now with
the
    > US birth certificate to get a US Passport. INS (or whatever they call it
    > now) said they (the passport people) use the same requirements. This was
    > said by one agent and I do not know if correct as I have gotten
conflicting
    > info.
    > > If you have problems dealing with the CIS (or whatever the INS is ca-
    > > lled nowadays) or the State Dept, get in touch with your Congressman
    > > or Senator.
    > That is exactly what I did. I was in my Congressmans office and an
employee
    > took copies of my mother's and father's Naturization documents. The
employee
    > was rather quick and I suggested them and she asked for no more. I did
sign
    > a disclosure to investigate or get information on me. It seems to me the
    > Congressman's office would need a lot more, like proof they are my
parents,
    > photo ids from the past and miscellaneous supporting documents.
    > I got a pro forma letter from the office a few days later. Perhaps I
should
    > contact them again and ask if they need more documents.
    > What is annoying and some may have no sympathy about rates considering
    > others' expense with the INS, but if I file a 600 it will cost me 240
    > dollars and God knows when it will be processed. My license will cost
about
    > 50 - so the total cost of 290 dollars *to renew* my driver's license, from
    > the point of view of someone WHO IS a US citizen, me --that is an
atrocious
    > fine for not having a simple verification that is official.
    > Like I said, in the Motor Vehicles department there seems to be no one
that
    > can make a judgement call on the documents based on intelligent prudence,
    > even a high official, but goes down a list of requirements. Since, this
is
    > all new law that has not been perfected or corrected yet, seems like I
have
    > fell in the cracks.
    > I am just glad I do not have 5 kids or a big mortgage or I could be losing
    > my home over this since I can't drive to work, and apparently, there is no
    > tool to resolve it quickly available to the citizen public through a court
    > or same-day/soon day interview/investigation personally at the INS.
    > Basically they, it seems to me, are putting US citizens through the same
    > rigors and que as a person newly applying from another country for a
missing
    > piece of paper, that was suggested at the time of Naturalization of the
    > parents that additional papers are unnecessary and the "kids are
automatic".
    > Harry


In this time and age it is highly prudent for everyone to make the best
effort to acquire some type of valid document to prove citizenship. After
all these years, knowing that you were not born in the US and therefore did
not have a US Birth certificate, I find it hard to understand why you were
not even able to apply for a Certificate of Naturalization if you really did
qualify to derive citizenship when your parents naturalized. Of course when
you were still a minor you probably didn't know about it, but during the
past 45 years...sigh.....it is inconceivable for anyone that you never even
thought or made an effort about getting one.
Anybody with a decent degree of maturity and common sense would understand
why documentary evidence is required for security and other vital purposes.
When you apply for a benefit, especially when abuses and fraud are rampant,
in spite of all supposedly strict requirements, it is tantamount to
negligence for the system not demand solid documentary evidence for
qualification.
You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right--to
require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to look
at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your responsibility
as expected.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the sort of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.

My Brother worked for Chase Manhatten in their New York office 10 or so years ago, one of his American colleagues had to go to their Japanese office and did not realise until the very last moment that he needed a passport. You think how could this be?

I have been to my Wife's annual family reunion several times, more than a hundred people there, going out of State is a big issue, the only one I know except my wife who have been out of the US were in the Military, a posting in Guantamano Bay and the other one was in Submarines so I am not sure if that counts.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > > You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right--
    > > -to
    > > require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to
    > > look
    > > at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your respons-
    > > ibility
    > > as expected.
    > Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the so-
    > rt of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.


Exactly.

Not having any knowledge of the red-tape of the system and never needing it
and knowing I was an automatic citizen through my parents naturalization I
wrongly assumed a common sense way of proving it, that is not the case if
it ever came up.

1. I was an automatic citizen (that INS confirms) at my parents
naturalization.

2. I show for evidence, my parents original naturailization papers

3. I *prove* who I am and my age at my parents naturaliaztion time and that
I have resided permanently in the United States.

My documents clearly *prove* this with multple sources and redundancy.
Frankly, I don't know what the INS would need more than that. I don't know,
being a US citizen, why this could not be handled, in my case, by a single
interview, leaving with something from that interview with all the right
documents.

But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system. That
is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS in
1963 that "your children are automatic."

BUT and a BIG BUT: something may have been stamped on my child-passport -
but very well might not of - why I am seeking it.

History has proven over and over again the US government agencies are
inefficient and have a proclivity for growth with said inefficiency, in my
opinion. Look at the CIA with the intelligence offered in recent years.

I will give you another example of US entities: The US Post Office. My son
who left my home moved elsewhere when he could afford it. He has the same
name except the middle initial. *ALL* of my mail then did not come to MY
house for ME. I called the Post Office, they said, "sorry but our computers
only read the first 5 letters and this is a problem with households with
same names or Juniors."

I spoke to the Postmaster who told me I will have to wait for one year for
the problem to go away BUT denied there was even a problem, just "one of
those things" and got indignant when I suggestted to fix it. He will "put an
note for my carrier", but if there is a standin, "mistakes will happen." His
managers did concur there is a problem in the PO with this. Every 60 days or
so I get them to manually remove the address change from the computer that
will only last 60 days because it then 'corrects' itself automatically.
This will last one year.

Astoundingly, they also do not even ask for ID when changing addresses in
most POs.

Sorry for going off topic but making a point.

Harry

Re: Corrention: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote

    > But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system.
That
    > is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS
in
    > 1963 that "your children are automatic."

I meant, .and my parents were wrongly told by the INS in1963 that,
"you children are automatic and need no document processing."

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > "Boiler" <member22431@british_expats.com> wrote

    > > > You just can't blame the US system for doing what is obviously right
to
    > > > require you to provide proof of identity and nationality! You have to
look
    > > > at yourself too and ask if you have done your best to do your
responsibility
    > > > as expected.

    > > Well if you have gone this far and never needed it, probably not the
sort of thing that would be top of your 'Must Do' list.

    > Exactly.
    > Not having any knowledge of the red-tape of the system and never needing
it
    > and knowing I was an automatic citizen through my parents naturalization I
    > wrongly assumed a common sense way of proving it, that is not the case if
    > it ever came up.
    > 1. I was an automatic citizen (that INS confirms) at my parents
    > naturalization.
    > 2. I show for evidence, my parents original naturailization papers
    > 3. I *prove* who I am and my age at my parents naturaliaztion time and
that
    > I have resided permanently in the United States.
    > My documents clearly *prove* this with multple sources and redundancy.

If you have your parents' naturalization certificates, and your birth
certificate showing they are your parents, and evidence of your U.S.
permanent resident status (not just that you "resided permanently" in the
U.S.), then you can apply for a U.S. passport.

It seems to me that the key missing document is evidence of your permanent
resident status. This is where the Congressperson's office should be able
to help you. There are databases in which someone can find your A number by
searching under your name. The Congressperson's case worker should call his
or her contact at a USCIS Congressional Liaison Unit (and every USCIS office
has such a unit), and ask the person to look up your A number.

If you are not getting enough help from the Congressperson's office, I
suggest you go there in person and sit there, politely requesting help,
until you get what you need. You should write and hand in a one-page letter
to the Congressperson requesting specific assistance, and describing the
hardship of being without a driver's license. Don't hold back on the
humanitarian angle. Go in the morning and sit for hours if necessary. They
will do something.

The N-600 is the proper form to file for the most solid evidence of
citizenship. If my child received "automatic citizenship" in the way you
did, I would certainly obtain a Certificate of Citizenship. N-600 usually
take a very long time from filing to approval -- it used to take almost 2
years.

    > Frankly, I don't know what the INS would need more than that. I don't
know,
    > being a US citizen, why this could not be handled, in my case, by a
single
    > interview, leaving with something from that interview with all the right
    > documents.
    > But, this is 'here nor there', I have to work with the existing system.
That
    > is why I never sought a paper and my parents were wrongly told by the INS
in
    > 1963 that "your children are automatic."
    > BUT and a BIG BUT: something may have been stamped on my child-passport -
    > but very well might not of - why I am seeking it.

If the same procedure was followed then as today, then yes, a stamp would
have been placed in your passport, with your A number, as temporary evidence
of permanent resident status, valid for one year. You also should have
received the actual green card in the mail.

Re: Parents passport VISA page was/Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Found something interesting in my in parents passport.

In the "VISAS" page in my parents passport that contains both their pictures

Dated June 6th 1957 <page that has the word 'VISAS' printed on the top> it
has "Immigrant Visa" checked with an "X", in the line where it says "Quota"
is handwritten "GB". In the "No." line after "Quota" is four (there were
four of us) handwriten 5 digit numbers.

Example handwritten: XXXXX <these number are sequencial>
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX


It has a stamp, "US Department of Justice ADMITTED" June 30th 1957

Then handwritten under that from the original VISA

"Includes wife & 2 children

(mother's name)
(older brother's name)
My names

Is this my VISA and if it is and it states 'immigrant' (permanent) could
this page be used with the motor vehicles as my immigrant VISA with further
proof of them being my parents? (will, other documents)

Thanks for all the replys.

Harry

Re: Parents passport VISA page was/Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Found something interesting in my in parents passport.
    > In the "VISAS" page in my parents passport that contains both their
pictures
    > Dated June 6th 1957 <page that has the word 'VISAS' printed on the top> it
    > has "Immigrant Visa" checked with an "X", in the line where it says
"Quota"
    > is handwritten "GB". In the "No." line after "Quota" is four (there were
    > four of us) handwriten 5 digit numbers.
    > Example handwritten: XXXXX <these number are sequencial>
    > XXXXX
    > XXXXX
    > XXXXX
    > It has a stamp, "US Department of Justice ADMITTED" June 30th 1957
    > Then handwritten under that from the original VISA
    > "Includes wife & 2 children
    > (mother's name)
    > (older brother's name)
    > My names
    > Is this my VISA and if it is and it states 'immigrant' (permanent) could
    > this page be used with the motor vehicles as my immigrant VISA with
further
    > proof of them being my parents? (will, other documents)

Just to clarify the terminology:

The stamp is not a visa, or visas. Remember, "visa" means something like
"permission to ask to enter the U.S. in a particular category." However the
5 digit numbers are probably visa numbers, showing that your immigration was
counted toward the quota for that year.

An immigrant visa is a thick sealed envelope which is issued by the U.S.
consular post in the process of consular immigrant visa processing. The
recipient of the visa goes to the port of entry to the U.S., and is
processed, and becomes a permanent resident of the U.S., and receives a
stamp in the passport as *evidence* of the permanent resident status.

The 5 digit numbers are not really relevant to you at the present time.
They are used for numerical accounting in the categories of immigration. In
addition to this ephemeral visa number, you should have a longer, unique A
number in USCIS databases.

This document is evidence that you obtained permanent resident status. It
may or may not be good enough for the application for a U.S. passport.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

The other thought I have is to take things up at a higher level with the state DMV, to see if they can issue you a drivers licence based on the evidence that's currently available.

You still need to get your US citizenship properly documented, but not having a drivers licence is an urgent problem in the meantime.

Often people at a sufficiently senior level in bureaucracies *do* have authority to give concessions in special cases. Even if it was nothing more than a temporary licences for a few months, it would help.

If you can't get in touch with someone sufficiently senior directly, or they are unhelpful, have a work with a friendly local member of your *state* legislature.

Jeremy

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers
 

Harry wrote:

    > Starting this year all were told to go to a Motor Vehicle Agency with a
    > point system giving various documents different points. The birth

This point system really baffles me. For example, the NYS DMV didn't
accept both my passport and my Green Card as proof of identity.

On the website it says "You cannot use more than one document of a
specific type for points". But nowhere are the document types
listed. I wouldn't list an INS document and a passport in the
same category. But I guess that's just me, and what I think really
doesn't count, does it.

Anyway, also what's weird to me is that, how come a out-of-state
license, a green card and a passport all worth less points than
a NYS license? To me, all these three are as reliable, or even
more reliable proofs of identity than a NYS driver's license.

Actually, according to the point system, all of them combined
are worth less than an in-state driver's license. (Assuming
that only passport or green card are accepted, but not both)

Oh well...

And I did have a question too; do driver's licenses expire with
immigration status? I think there were plans for it, but did
the plans get implemented?

And also, if a lincese is supposed to expire with status, but
the license has an expiration date somewhere in the future,
which one is applied? The date on the license, or the date of
expiration of status? And furthermore, does this affect licenses
that were issued before this law (if there is such a law) was
passed?

--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://editor.is.dreaming.org

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers
 

NJ does now, I foolishly (although probably legally required) surrendered my nice CA driving license, for a mickey mouse NJ one last December. CA one expired June next year, the NJ one was valid until May this year. Normally such changes are never backdated, but implicitly, a license is only valid while you're resident in a given state (probably...)

New NJ licenses are much better, but the CA ones still look much better.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Mikko Peltoniemi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<SNIP>
    > And I did have a question too; do driver's licenses expire with
    > immigration status? I think there were plans for it, but did
    > the plans get implemented?
    > And also, if a lincese is supposed to expire with status, but
    > the license has an expiration date somewhere in the future,
    > which one is applied? The date on the license, or the date of
    > expiration of status? And furthermore, does this affect licenses
    > that were issued before this law (if there is such a law) was
    > passed?

That depends on the state. New Jersey I understand has made the D/L validity
match the immigration status date. There was a newspaper article a while ago
describing the troubles this wsa causing for all the legal immigrants in NJ.
New York, on the other hand, has not and the expiration date of the D/L
takes
precendence over the immigration status date.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers
 

Nomadic Existence wrote:

    > NJ does now, I foolishly (although probably legally required) surrender-
    > ed my nice CA driving license, for a mickey mouse NJ one last December.
    > CA one expired June next year, the NJ one was valid until May this year.
    > Normally such changes are never backdated, but implicitly, a license is
    > only valid while you're resident in a given state (probably...)

Yeah, this is pretty much I figured it goes. I was just wondering,
because I had a CA license, and I tried to get a NY license, and the
first clerk would've made me take the whole test (written+road) again.

I was so amazed, that I didn't even complain at first, until after
taking the written test (and passing it ;), I asked the second clerk
and his opinion was that I didn't have to take the test. Hopefully it's
right this time, and no-one will be asking me to take the test anymore.

I had a valid CA license, though my immigration status had changed
recently, and now I have a green card. So I thought they tried to make
me take the test because of this.

But still I think it says on the website that not only are valid
out-of-state licenses accepted, but recently expired as well.

--
Mikko Peltoniemi
Film & Video Editor, Avid Technician at large.
http://editor.is.dreaming.org

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers
 

"Mikko Peltoniemi" <[email protected]> wrote

> Yeah, this is pretty much I figured it goes. I was just wondering,
    > because I had a CA license, and I tried to get a NY license, and the
    > first clerk would've made me take the whole test (written+road) again.
    > I was so amazed, that I didn't even complain at first, until after
    > taking the written test (and passing it ;), I asked the second clerk
    > and his opinion was that I didn't have to take the test. Hopefully it's
    > right this time, and no-one will be asking me to take the test anymore.
    > I had a valid CA license, though my immigration status had changed
    > recently, and now I have a green card. So I thought they tried to make
    > me take the test because of this.
    > But still I think it says on the website that not only are valid
    > out-of-state licenses accepted, but recently expired as well.

First of all as far as the Motor Vehicle Agencies in NJ are concerned: I
went to 3 and got 3 different answers and attitudes. The first agency almost
gave me my license and was trying to make phone calls to get some assurance
to give it to me. The second agency just brushed me off to go to a Regional
Center. The Regional Center did not even look at my documents but told me to
"get a Green Card" which is impossible for a US citizen to get.
That is how dumb the system is. The first agency was nice and trying to be
helpful.

The first person who processed me at the first agency approved my
credentials. Unfortunately, I walked back up with my form filled out at the
wrong time when a, I guess, manager was standing next to him and he said, "I
am going to accept this birth certificate from England." The manager
replied, "oh no! you can't do that!!" Then it went up to the Director of
that agency who was most, actually, helpful trying to do it and trying to
get some kind of approval. She asked me to stop back when I ironed out the
problem to tell her what I had learned to do. Probably in order to help
other citizens in this situation.

The Director in the Regional Center was a moron who told me get a Green Card
and did not even want to look at my documents and didn't and quickly
dismissed me.

Someone mentioned seeing a Congressman. I did that the day after my problem
a couple of weeks ago in person and spoke to their office on the phone
yesterday. I spoke about an hour to a staff assistant that handles this and
I was amazed when he was telling me of a lot of citizens with this problem
and without naming names, obviously, told me a few case studies of what was
done. This has been a mess for US Naturalized people unless every 'p' and
'q' in their documents is perfect - still after 50 or 60 years.

One example he was mentioning of those that have particular difficulty is
Korean War GI-brides and children born in Korea of such who were transported
to the US via the Military transport system of that day and have no record
of entry. Seems like the citizens with the biggest problems are those in the
50s or 60s era. Told me a story of one case of that and how it barely went
through with a LOT of work.

Also mentioned one or two that were trying to straighten this out nearly
came to deportation and mentioned deportation judges are not really fair
judges but line by line 'cut and dried' without much bending - if a case
ever got that far and serious.

I discussed some documents and are making copies to be sent to his office.
The way it is going to be approached is for me to get a US passport for
quicker enablement of the credentials for my driver's license. I will be
applying for a US passport. That, I would like to have anyway. I should have
a US passport. If I am rejected then I am going to have my case taken up
for help.

After reading some of the horror stories here about overseas US Consuls and
Embassies, if it were possible and I were going out of the country, it may
be a good idea to get a British passport, at a later date also, since I was
born in England before being naturalized. Considering how absurd the system
is here (speaking about INS), I have a gut feeling if somehow I got in
trouble overseas though unlikely, I would probably get more help from the
British Embassy. I don't know anything about this, so if that is wrong or
illegal, obviously I would not do it finding out.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers
 

You can get a British passport anytime you like but given the difficulties with proving your status in the US, I would suggest you don't leave the US for any reason until this is sorted out and you have a US passport issued.

Jeremy

Re: update Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"codyVA" <member27336@british_expats.com> wrote

    > I can't believe you haven't been on Oprah yet :) Keep us posted cause I
    > really want to know how does it end up. Good luck again.

OK, I will give one update for now . . obviously for privacy of the
people reasons, I will not name any people or person's by name who have, or
will, help me if I get help. I went to the local Passport people in a
local Mall and filled out an application for a US passport.

The 'County Clerk' employee who took the application told me that she does
not know if it will go through or not. I gave them both of my parents'
Naturalization, original, papers and their passport from 1957 along with a
couple of photo IDs, education document, and 'sticky-noted' the passport in
the two places that show my name along with the "ADMITTED" stamp from 1957.
Showing I was manifested on that UK Passport.

The Clerk did tell me something interesting: that in some cases the US
Passport Agency (or past Passport Agency as the Homeland Security laws
change all the time) she said, will approve a passport of a person claiming
citizenship with overwhelming evidence, without waiting the year or less to
process the N-600 form BY receiving a 'receipt" from INS that the N-600 IS
in due process, perhaps a receipt of the fee paid.

I still do not have my 'A' number though that would require a search.
Someone told me that it may not be findable from 1957. I believe the N -600
can/will be rejected without an 'A' number. But If I can get my driver's
license renewed, who cares?, I can handle this later IF they do accept my
N-600 application and give me a receipt - IF - that comes up.

I got the 'fast expedite' SO if it is rejected I can now work with my local
Congressman's office as soon as possible to get my driver's license renewed
or attempt to. The Passport Agency advised me that it was not necessary that
if they rejected it, they may send a letter of rejection anyway before the
"6 weeks or so" of normal expedite. Nevertheless, I got the 'fast expedite'
of the Passport to bring my attempt to a conclusion faster. Also, they asked
me for my license. Moments later they said, "this license is expired!!!"
(but still asked me to sign the back as I forgot to sign it- that is a 55
dollar fine here in NJ - strange that they asked me to sign a driver's
license that was expired). I gave them a couple of photo ID's, one as far
back as my High School Identification card. I told them THAT is why I am
also seeking a Passport to get my driver's license renewed PLUS I want one
(that is true).

She mentioned that she has seen cases even worst than mine with less
documents where people have gotten US Passports - one case she mentioned was
a person who never knew her US born father from overseas, he became deceased
and somehow she got all his papers and presented them. In my case, I have
TWO Naturalized parents at the age of around 11 (1963) THAT at the time as a
child I was told I was *automatically* a citizen and this is true but as one
INS employee said when I asked in this problem if I should stop voting as it
is a Federal crime to vote as a non-citizen because of my lack of a child
document: "No, continue to vote, you ARE a citizen it is just your problem
is having a document to show." (to repeat)

I am told that if there is a problem I will get a letter in 7 to 10 days
from the Passport people. THEN, if rejected I will take it up with my
Congressman's staff employee. If approved I will get the passport itself, I
think, in about 10 days to 2 weeks.

I will post another update, without naming anyone or identifying anyone that
gave me help except general descriptions, obviously. You never know, it
might be possible (though not likely) that ' a string could be pulled
somewhere' and the person I am sure would not like to be identified.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming out of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
Good luck

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote

    > Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming out
    > of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
    > Good luck

Thanks for the "good luck" but not true. I was a citizen automatically. I
was told that by the Agent, in fact, two agents and a Congressional rep -
what you do NOT get automatically is an official document (child) that is
now optional (but still asked for and may be asked for later like in Motor
Vehicles). All I want now is my passport to get my driver's license. If I
get it, I will handle the getting a document for my citizenship issue at a
later date.

Read the 2001 law (I believe) this was similiar to my period.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...er_first_match

(Hopefully that link will stay together)

Here is what it says:

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part II > Sec. 1431. Prev | Next
Sec. 1431. -

Children born outside the United States and residing permanently in the
United States; conditions under which citizenship automatically<----------
acquired

(a)
A child born outside of the United States automatically<------ becomes a
citizen of the United States when all of the following conditions have been
fulfilled:
(1)
At least one parent of the child is a citizen of the United States, whether
by birth or naturalization.
(2)
The child is under the age of eighteen years.
(3)
The child is residing in the United States in the legal and physical custody
of the citizen parent pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent
residence.
(b)
Subsection (a) of this section shall apply to a child adopted by a United
States citizen parent if the child satisfies the requirements applicable to
adopted children under section 1101(b)(1) of this title

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Sure, you became a citizen automatically, but you're having problems because you don't have a paper to prove it..........see, everything isn't automatic!

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    > > "helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote
    > >
    > > > Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming
    > > > out
    > > > of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
    > > > Good luck
    > >
    > > Thanks for the "good luck" but not true. I was a citizen automaticall-
    > > y. I
    > > was told that by the Agent, in fact, two agents and a Congressional
    > > rep -
    > > what you do NOT get automatically is an official document (child) that
    > > is
    > > now optional (but still asked for and may be asked for later like in
    > > Motor
    > > Vehicles). All I want now is my passport to get my driver's license.
    > > If I
    > > get it, I will handle the getting a document for my citizenship issue
    > > at a
    > > later date.
    > >
    > > Read the 2001 law (I believe) this was similiar to my period.
    > >
    > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...EMMER=en&WORD-
    > > S=automat+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/8/1431.html#muscat_highligh-
    > > ter_first_match
    > >
    > > (Hopefully that link will stay together)
    > >
    > > Here is what it says:
    > >
    > > TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part II > Sec. 1431. Prev |
    > > Next
    > > Sec. 1431. -
    > >
    > > Children born outside the United States and residing permanently in
    > > the
    > > United States; conditions under which citizenship automatically<------
    > > -----
    > > acquired
    > >
    > > (a)
    > > A child born outside of the United States automatically<------ bec-
    > > omes a
    > > citizen of the United States when all of the following conditions
    > > have been
    > > fulfilled:
    > > (1)
    > > At least one parent of the child is a citizen of the United States,
    > > whether
    > > by birth or naturalization.
    > > (2)
    > > The child is under the age of eighteen years.
    > > (3)
    > > The child is residing in the United States in the legal and physic-
    > > al custody
    > > of the citizen parent pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent
    > > residence.
    > > (b)
    > > Subsection (a) of this section shall apply to a child adopted by a
    > > United
    > > States citizen parent if the child satisfies the requirements appl-
    > > icable to
    > > adopted children under section 1101(b)(1) of this title
    > >
    > > Harry
    > Sure, you became a citizen automatically, but you're having problems be-
    > cause you don't have a paper to prove it..........see, everything isn't
    > automatic!

That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but if you
don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same problem as well!
Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think. Claims of
citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the fact that something
may be automatic needs to be proven and the law still requires that the
applicant for a benefit has the burden of proof!

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"matrix" <[email protected]> wrote

    > That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but if
you
    > don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same problem as
well!

In motor vehicle agencies not so bad a problem if you are born in the US
they have a toll free number to help look for the records and may be a lot
easier. I was given the number by mistake by a person who thought it covered
my issue too. It may be a lot quicker to replace a birth certificate that go
through the INS (INS refers to whatever they call themself now).

    > Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think.

Not on my end describing the problem and why - some posted recommendations
here have been very helpful especially when I first posted. Further speaking
on the phone for over an hour to a Congressional aid/employee, I know the
problem perfectly - not quite the solution yet - I will start with the
passport application in a fast expedite mode.

    > Claims of citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the fact
that something
    > may be automatic needs to be proven and the law still requires that the
    > applicant for a benefit has the burden of proof!

Correct. And THAT is why I have both original documents (or had them, the
passport people have them now) of my parents Naturalization papers and can
prove who I am.

The problem is, the employees of, for example, a motor vehicle agency are
not allowed to make *judgment* calls but go line by line of existing
documents required according to recent law. If you do not have the actual
document, you cannot prove that your *could* or are *entitled* to the
document THEY want the actual paper with no cerebral activity.

No new law is perfect and gets amended, perhaps there will be a time with
motor vehicle agencies, (considering Congressional offices are spending a
lot of time on my type of problem - got that from the horse's mouth) that
one can present conclusive evidence of proof of citizenship instead of a
specific document that might be appealed to a higher director or court or
motor vehicle official, NOT to interfere with the person's olivewood.
Who knows.

One has to take their documents to those who can *make a judgment call* like
the INS or perhaps the Passport people. The problem with the INS via
driver's license issues to get further citizenship related documents is that
it takes too long for them to make the call - perhaps a year where one will
be out of work for a year not being able to drive to work. Otherwise, my
problem would probably be a cakewalk.

Harry

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.
    >
    > I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years later my
    > parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told that my
    > citizenship was "automatic".
    >
    > Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my birth
    > certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization papers
    > (both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my residency.
    >
    > One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card". All
    > this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since Kindergarten.
    >
    > I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see if it
    > has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.
    >
    > I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like to
    > worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.
    >
    > A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on paper so
    > I can renew my license?
    >
    >
    > The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but you
    > have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with various
    > other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Naturalization
    > papers, that should be enough but it isn't.
    >
    > Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed without the
    > INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I use my
    > British birth certificate to get a British passport.
    >
    > This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in November?"
    > and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you ARE a
    > citizen but just don't have the papers."
    >
    > I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
    > citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of information Act"
    > search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passport, if I
    > can find it?
    >
    > Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the phones
    > seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.
    >
    > Thanks for any reply.
    >
    > Harry

You sir, are an idiot!

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
After all, you have inferiority.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > "matrix" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    >> That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but
    >> if you don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same
    >> problem as well!
    >
    > In motor vehicle agencies not so bad a problem if you are born in the
    > US they have a toll free number to help look for the records and may be
    > a lot easier. I was given the number by mistake by a person who thought
    > it covered my issue too. It may be a lot quicker to replace a birth
    > certificate that go through the INS (INS refers to whatever they call
    > themself now).
    >
    >> Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think.
    >
    > Not on my end describing the problem and why - some posted
    > recommendations here have been very helpful especially when I first
    > posted. Further speaking on the phone for over an hour to a
    > Congressional aid/employee, I know the problem perfectly - not quite
    > the solution yet - I will start with the passport application in a fast
    > expedite mode.
    >
    >> Claims of citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the
    >> fact that something may be automatic needs to be proven and the law
    >> still requires that the applicant for a benefit has the burden of
    >> proof!
    >
    > Correct. And THAT is why I have both original documents (or had them,
    > the passport people have them now) of my parents Naturalization papers
    > and can prove who I am.
    >
    > The problem is, the employees of, for example, a motor vehicle agency
    > are not allowed to make *judgment* calls but go line by line of
    > existing documents required according to recent law. If you do not have
    > the actual document, you cannot prove that your *could* or are
    > *entitled* to the document THEY want the actual paper with no cerebral
    > activity.
    >
    > No new law is perfect and gets amended, perhaps there will be a time
    > with motor vehicle agencies, (considering Congressional offices are
    > spending a lot of time on my type of problem - got that from the
    > horse's mouth) that one can present conclusive evidence of proof of
    > citizenship instead of a specific document that might be appealed to a
    > higher director or court or motor vehicle official, NOT to interfere
    > with the person's olivewood. Who knows.
    >
    > One has to take their documents to those who can *make a judgment call*
    > like the INS or perhaps the Passport people. The problem with the INS
    > via driver's license issues to get further citizenship related
    > documents is that it takes too long for them to make the call - perhaps
    > a year where one will be out of work for a year not being able to drive
    > to work. Otherwise, my problem would probably be a cakewalk.
    >
    > Harry
    >
    >
    >

I sympathise. I am here on a green card, but I waited the maximum
permissible time before getting a Maryland driving licence. Then the MVA
(Motor Vehicle Administration) told me I couldn't get a licence with an H-1
visa unless I also had an I-94 (landing card). At the time, my adjustment
of status (AOS) to get my green card was pending, and so the INS had my I-
94, just as they should have had. I could have got a substitute I-94 from
the INS, but by then I would have been driving illegally.

I told the MVA clerk that I had to drive to work every day and I would be
driving whether I had a licence or not, and asked them whether they would
like to be able to keep track of me? Miraculously, they caved in. I am
fairly sure the clerk was wrong about needing an I-94, as the rules just
say something about proving legal immigration status, and an unexpired visa
proves that. Sometimes 'playing hardball' works. I suspect that if they
hadn't let me take the test, another location might have, although I too
might have given up after trying three!

The principle problem in all this is that the motor vehicle people know
practically nothing about immigration, and make weird and arbitrary
judgements based on their own fanciful notions. I don't think the problem
will go away anytime soon.

There are still some states that don't have immigration rules for getting a
licence. Maybe a good 'end run' around all this ineptitude is to get a
licence from one such state and pretend that you have just moved from
there. I reckon a lot of motor vehicle clerks would exchange it without a
moment's thought.

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

Ray <member9793@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
    > > "Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > > upernews.com>...
    > > > Hi,
    > > >
    > > > I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.
    > > >
    > > > I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years lat-
    > > > er my
    > > > parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told
    > > > that my
    > > > citizenship was "automatic".
    > > >
    > > > Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my
    > > > birth
    > > > certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization
    > > > papers
    > > > (both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my resi-
    > > > dency.
    > > >
    > > > One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card-
    > > > ". All
    > > > this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since Kinde-
    > > > rgarten.
    > > >
    > > > I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see
    > > > if it
    > > > has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.
    > > >
    > > > I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like
    > > > to
    > > > worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.
    > > >
    > > > A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on
    > > > paper so
    > > > I can renew my license?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but
    > > > you
    > > > have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with va-
    > > > rious
    > > > other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Natural-
    > > > ization
    > > > papers, that should be enough but it isn't.
    > > >
    > > > Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed with-
    > > > out the
    > > > INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I
    > > > use my
    > > > British birth certificate to get a British passport.
    > > >
    > > > This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in No-
    > > > vember?"
    > > > and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you
    > > > ARE a
    > > > citizen but just don't have the papers."
    > > >
    > > > I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
    > > > citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of informa-
    > > > tion Act"
    > > > search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passp-
    > > > ort, if I
    > > > can find it?
    > > >
    > > > Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the
    > > > phones
    > > > seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.
    > > >
    > > > Thanks for any reply.
    > > >
    > > > Harry
    > >
    > > You sir, are an idiot!
    >
    > People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
    > After all, you have inferiority.

va chier

Re: Been in USA 45 years with natuarlized parents can't get drivers license
 

"Ray" <member9793@british_expats.com> wrote

> You sir, are an idiot!
    > People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
    > After all, you have inferiority.

Ray, . . .go **** yourself. <---------

I have read your drivel here and have opened a couple of your smartass posts
to various people.

At least once you wrote something worth reading, describing yourself, after
I read a couple posts of your drivel.

"A sharp tongue is no indication of a keen mind."

See, you can say something intelligent when you quote someone else,
otherwise maybe you should just shut the **** up. (unless you can come up
with more useful quotes)

Hey, you want to start flaming pal - knock yourself out.

Harry