Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
May 30th 2010, 3:36 am
#63
Not around much..
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
Fine! Your "man cave" complete with no "shit" electricity
Maybe you can get Norweb to supply some of that super safe english electricity via that secret tunnel that connects the US and the UK...or NOT...
Maybe you can get Norweb to supply some of that super safe english electricity via that secret tunnel that connects the US and the UK...or NOT...
Last edited by SDDep; May 30th 2010 at 3:38 am. Reason: I wasn't done yet!!!
May 30th 2010, 3:51 am
#64
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May 30th 2010, 3:54 am
#65
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
May 30th 2010, 5:36 am
#66
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
You'd think so, but in practice it doesn't matter. 110 and 240 are both considered "low voltage" and either is capable of overcoming skin resistance at the point of contact and delivering more than the "let go" current (at which point you can't let go) and the lethal current (which, depending on the path it takes, can be more or less than let go).
IIRC, for low voltage stuff the PD doesn't really come into play, from a safety point of view, until you get down to around 30V.
IIRC, for low voltage stuff the PD doesn't really come into play, from a safety point of view, until you get down to around 30V.
But if your skin is WET, resistance drops by a factor of 100 to 1 kohm, and at 1 kohm, even 120 Volts can deliver the appropriate current - 120 Volts / 1000 ohm = 120 mAmps.
Now, back to my original argument - if you are in the bathroom, and your skin is 'damp' (as opposed to 'wet'), and you touch 120 V, you have a better chance of surviving than if you touched 240 V. I would say it is a definite fact that 240 V is more dangerous in this regard, from a practical perspective, and accounts in part for why US plugs are less 'protected', and why electrical outlets and switches are not as highly regulated by 'code' in US bathrooms.
Finally, another way that voltage is a factor is when the voltage gets high enough to break down your skin entirely; this is the case when you have lightening - lightening striking the skin will damage the cellular structure and break through to the inner body, which has a much lower resistance.
May 30th 2010, 6:02 am
#67
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,605
Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
OK, you got me interested in this ... according to numerous sites I visited, the main issue is skin resistance. On the one hand, it only takes about 200 milliamps across the heart to cause the heart to fibrillate. But human skin has a high electrical resistance (100 kohm), so touching any typical electrical source has little effect.
But if your skin is WET, resistance drops by a factor of 100 to 1 kohm, and at 1 kohm, even 120 Volts can deliver the appropriate current - 120 Volts / 1000 ohm = 120 mAmps.
Now, back to my original argument - if you are in the bathroom, and your skin is 'damp' (as opposed to 'wet'), and you touch 120 V, you have a better chance of surviving than if you touched 240 V.
But if your skin is WET, resistance drops by a factor of 100 to 1 kohm, and at 1 kohm, even 120 Volts can deliver the appropriate current - 120 Volts / 1000 ohm = 120 mAmps.
Now, back to my original argument - if you are in the bathroom, and your skin is 'damp' (as opposed to 'wet'), and you touch 120 V, you have a better chance of surviving than if you touched 240 V.
What you're missing is that there's catastrophe point, around 30V, at which the PD is able to overcome the skin resistance and allow a current to flow. Once past that, the voltage is irrelevant as long as you stay within the low voltage range used in domestic wiring.
Finally, another way that voltage is a factor is when the voltage gets high enough to break down your skin entirely; this is the case when you have lightening - lightening striking the skin will damage the cellular structure and break through to the inner body, which has a much lower resistance.
May 30th 2010, 6:36 pm
#68
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
You're flogging a dead horse here, mate. The OSHA page you link to talks about variations of two orders of magnitude (factor of 100). Other sources make it a factor of 500, or 1000. In that range, a factor of 2 is just a drop in the ocean.
What you're missing is that there's catastrophe point, around 30V, at which the PD is able to overcome the skin resistance and allow a current to flow. Once past that, the voltage is irrelevant as long as you stay within the low voltage range used in domestic wiring.
And I would say this is wishful thinking, symptomatic of the way you seem to have become "more American than the Americans". It's OK to accept that everything in the US isn't the best thing in the world, you know?
Now you're talking about something other than low voltage, and that's a whole 'nother thing.
What you're missing is that there's catastrophe point, around 30V, at which the PD is able to overcome the skin resistance and allow a current to flow. Once past that, the voltage is irrelevant as long as you stay within the low voltage range used in domestic wiring.
And I would say this is wishful thinking, symptomatic of the way you seem to have become "more American than the Americans". It's OK to accept that everything in the US isn't the best thing in the world, you know?
Now you're talking about something other than low voltage, and that's a whole 'nother thing.
May 30th 2010, 7:22 pm
#69
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
You're flogging a dead horse here, mate. The OSHA page you link to talks about variations of two orders of magnitude (factor of 100). Other sources make it a factor of 500, or 1000. In that range, a factor of 2 is just a drop in the ocean.
What you're missing is that there's catastrophe point, around 30V, at which the PD is able to overcome the skin resistance and allow a current to flow. Once past that, the voltage is irrelevant as long as you stay within the low voltage range used in domestic wiring.
What you're missing is that there's catastrophe point, around 30V, at which the PD is able to overcome the skin resistance and allow a current to flow. Once past that, the voltage is irrelevant as long as you stay within the low voltage range used in domestic wiring.
We know, from practical experience, that a human can touch BOTH 120V and 240V and live to tell the tale (when skin is dry and body is insulated to ground). We also know that people are killed by both 120V and 240V when skin is wet and there is a good path to ground. The two factors - 'wetness', and grounding, are quite complex variables to identify, but since there is a definite, practical, real-life range from 'safe' to 'unsafe', the threshold will be passed more quickly with 240 V compared to 120 V. Arguing against that defies common sense.
Last edited by Steerpike; May 30th 2010 at 7:36 pm.
May 30th 2010, 8:18 pm
#70
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
Now, back to my original argument - if you are in the bathroom, and your skin is 'damp' (as opposed to 'wet'), and you touch 120 V, you have a better chance of surviving than if you touched 240 V. I would say it is a definite fact that 240 V is more dangerous in this regard, from a practical perspective, and accounts in part for why US plugs are less 'protected', and why electrical outlets and switches are not as highly regulated by 'code' in US bathrooms.
When I'm soaking wet and naked, I'd much rather be using a 6' length of non conductive string to operate a 240 V switch than be fractions of inches away from a 120 V switch.
On the subject of switches, I've seen a few US houses where there are no faceplates on switches in the bathroom, because people are renovating (permanently, it would seem). 120 V or not, when you can see the bare ends of the wire and metal, it's a bit scary!
May 30th 2010, 8:39 pm
#71
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
In real life however 240V should be less dangerous in this situation, because of all the regulations.
When I'm soaking wet and naked, I'd much rather be using a 6' length of non conductive string to operate a 240 V switch than be fractions of inches away from a 120 V switch.
On the subject of switches, I've seen a few US houses where there are no faceplates on switches in the bathroom, because people are renovating (permanently, it would seem). 120 V or not, when you can see the bare ends of the wire and metal, it's a bit scary!
When I'm soaking wet and naked, I'd much rather be using a 6' length of non conductive string to operate a 240 V switch than be fractions of inches away from a 120 V switch.
On the subject of switches, I've seen a few US houses where there are no faceplates on switches in the bathroom, because people are renovating (permanently, it would seem). 120 V or not, when you can see the bare ends of the wire and metal, it's a bit scary!
May 31st 2010, 3:48 pm
#72
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
Wow! I asked the question, went away for the weekend, and came back to a lengthy discussion about voltage and David Bowie lyrics... well, thanks for all the info everyone... haven't pulled any more plugs, but I do still think UK plugs feel a lot sturdier, and some US ones (especially if being used with an adaptor) barely manage to stay in the bloody wall!
Anyway, it's a god-awful small affair... Sorry, couldn't resist that one!
Anyway, it's a god-awful small affair... Sorry, couldn't resist that one!
May 31st 2010, 9:02 pm
#73
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
Last edited by Steerpike; May 31st 2010 at 9:06 pm.
May 31st 2010, 11:56 pm
#74
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,605
Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
What drives me nuts, though, is when people piss and moan about trivial shit like the wiring, or the bread, or the grocery stores, or the temperature of the beer, or the use of knives and forks, or the height of walls in toilets, and countless other trivia that shouldn't even occupy the braincells of productive, forward thinking, engaged human beings ...
You've rejected that - ergo American.
Jun 1st 2010, 2:31 am
#75
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Re: Why shouldn't I pull the plug?
There you go then. Surely there's nothing more British than sticking to trivial shit? Example: in a WWII bomb shelter, drinking tea from a thermos while bombs fall all around, the correct answer to "How are you bearing up?" is "Well, the water for this tea could have been a bit hotter."
You've rejected that - ergo American.
You've rejected that - ergo American.
You have my vote kitty kat!!!