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A personal opinion of the USA

A personal opinion of the USA

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Old Jan 30th 2010, 6:32 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by Tom60
Well, we clearly need to do something. Hydrogen technology is just one of several means of holding us until we are able to wean ourselves off of foreign oil. Nobody said capitalism was perfect, but socialism is a dead end, in my opinion, and that is one thing that you truly never will sell to the American people. We don't want the government dictating anything. That's the way it is, like it or not. I'm not saying they shouldn't play a role, but that role should be as limited as possible. I'm obviously not going to sway your opinion, and you're not going to change mine, so I guess we'll just disagree.
Define socialism.
Give your perceived notions of what socialism entails.
Give some examples of countries where socialism is practised.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 6:54 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

I don't have to define anything for you, but I will say that a common characteristic involves public (governmental) ownership and/or control of business. I'm sure you'll come along and "set me straight", but I believe Venezuela could be classified as socialist. But as you probably know, there are various definitions of it, and you'll no doubt school me on that as well.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 7:16 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by Tom60
I don't have to define anything for you, but I will say that a common characteristic involves public (governmental) ownership and/or control of business. I'm sure you'll come along and "set me straight", but I believe Venezuela could be classified as socialist. But as you probably know, there are various definitions of it, and you'll no doubt school me on that as well.
I ask because you seem to be throwing out the word socialist without any meaning. If there's something that goes against my beliefs and I really don't want to think it through, attach a suitable moniker and then my beliefs can remain unblemished whether they hold true or not. Such is socialized healthcare -- an adjective that is used to say I don't want change rather than to apply any thought to the matter in hand in order to improve it.

Venezuala is an interesting example. But it's rather authoritarian and an example of a non-industrialized country. Rather, it would be better to look at all of America's comparables, the countries of Western Europe, that cold land above us, and those of an antipodean persuasion. I think it would be fair to say that they all practice a form of social democracy......but is that socialism?

Since you are not dong to well with non-American examples of where government intercedes with standardization using carrot and stick to prosper all, why not compare trying to change the fuel for vehicles with that of the recent switch to HD TV? Were you against that?
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 7:50 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Since you are not dong to well with non-American examples of where government intercedes with standardization using carrot and stick to prosper all, why not compare trying to change the fuel for vehicles with that of the recent switch to HD TV? Were you against that?
What's with the tone? Is this a test? Damn. Well, quite a few people who didn't subscribe to cable or satellite were cut off unless they bought a converter box. Yeah, the government provided coupons, but from what I saw, the stores were usually out of stock. As for HD in general? I guess I'm satisfied. But I don't give the government credit for that. I've said already that I have no objection to government playing some sort of role in our lives, just not to the degree you apparently do. They'll fine me $55 for not wearing a seatbelt, and say it's for my safety. But they have no problem with me buying a pack of cigarettes...as long as I pay the tax on it.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by fatbrit
There's a foolish belief that free market capitalism is a pure religion that works perfectly on its own over here. It doesn't and it never has. The mess at the end of the last 10 years should have been a clear enough example of what happens if government doesn't oversee and steer.

As an analogy, let's look at the mobile phone system. European governments dictated the standards to providers and then let them get on with it. The GSM standard was chosen and everyone had to adhere to it. Over in the US, everyone got to do their own thing and there were several standards. When I came over from a decidedly second-world European country just emerging from communism a decade ago, I brought my unlocked GSM phone with me. To my surprise, it was a major talking point since it was a couple of years before that model made it to America. The system over here has encouraged lock-in, monopolies and stifled development. The 3g revolution in Europe led that in the US by many years.

It's not that we don't want government in out lives but rather that we need government to represent the everyday folk rather than corporate interests. For the future fuel for personal transportation, it is not going to happen unless the government dictates what it is. The corporations, especially US ones, do not have and indeed are not required to have the foresight to standardize this. That is a function of government.
Got to agree with FB here. A degree of steerage by the government, representing the average citizen, is required if these kind of changes are to take place in a timely manner and with some degree of efficiency. If it becomes viable technology the move to Hydrogen would still happen without a government push but only when deemed profitable by those involved. Unfortunately what is profitable and what is "the right thing to do" rarely go together. I don't see how it can be considered "Socialist". it seems that word is thoroughly overused in this country at the moment.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 10:01 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by Tom60
What's with the tone? Is this a test? Damn. Well, quite a few people who didn't subscribe to cable or satellite were cut off unless they bought a converter box. Yeah, the government provided coupons, but from what I saw, the stores were usually out of stock. As for HD in general? I guess I'm satisfied. But I don't give the government credit for that. I've said already that I have no objection to government playing some sort of role in our lives, just not to the degree you apparently do. They'll fine me $55 for not wearing a seatbelt, and say it's for my safety. But they have no problem with me buying a pack of cigarettes...as long as I pay the tax on it.
Tom, for reals... you don't give the gov't 'credit' for the digital TV switch? Who made it mandatory then?

In the United States, high-power over-the-air broadcasts are solely in the ATSC digital format since June 11 2009, the date that the FCC set for the end of all high-power analog TV transmissions. As a result, almost two million households could no longer watch TV because they were not prepared for the transition. The switchover was originally scheduled for February 17, 2009 until the US Congress passed the DTV Delay Act.[1] By special dispensation, some analog TV signals ceased on the original date.[2]

And the seatbelts? Nearly *everyone* rides in a car, less than 30% of the population smokes.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 10:25 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

I know the government mandated the switch. I assumed he meant was I happy with the technology itself, which, thanks to Comcast and Philips, I am (mostly). My comment on seatbelts/tobacco was simply based on my perception of the hypocrisy involved, and I don't see how the percentages of smokers vs drivers is relevant.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 10:32 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by meauxna
And the seatbelts? Nearly *everyone* rides in a car, less than 30% of the population smokes.
Actually, about 20% of the population smokes. But I see Tom's point in this example ... the government makes a lot of money on the taxes of tobacco products. I think he's simply saying that in one case a law was passed to save lives but in another money is being gained by an activity that takes/shortens lives.

Of course the question then becomes ... where do you draw the line?
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 10:37 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by fatbrit
The reason for changing to hydrogen is that it is the best way we are likely find of having a large amount of energy in a small space as required for our transportation.
Isn't California pushing ahead with hydrogen cars? I remember watching something on Top Gear about it a while back with James May (in a Honda if I recall).
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 10:38 pm
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by Tom60
Nobody said capitalism was perfect, but socialism is a dead end, in my opinion, and that is one thing that you truly never will sell to the American people. We don't want the government dictating anything. That's the way it is, like it or not. I'm not saying they shouldn't play a role, but that role should be as limited as possible. I'm obviously not going to sway your opinion, and you're not going to change mine, so I guess we'll just disagree.
Au contraire, mon frere.

Your viewpoint aligns closely with the traditional position of the Republican party. That does not speak for all Americans. Fatbrit is an American, I'm an American, as are others on here. Your comments do not reflect my beliefs.

In theory capitalism works beautifully. In practice, however, government intervention is absolutely needed as corporations are in the business of making money, not doing what's best for the country.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 11:30 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by fatbrit
You're muddying the field here.
It's actually an inconvenient truth. Fuel cells are still in the experimental stages and may never become commercially viable for cars, hydrogen is not an ideal substance to store or transport, and we could reasonably expect that most US hydrogen production would require hydrocarbons.

Those are all facts. Hoping that those facts will simply disappear is wholly unrealistic.

Energy independence for the US is a scam. The US is simply too gluttonous an energy consumer to ever be independent.

Americans don't want to hear the truth that they will never be energy independent, and that the only way for them to reduce their dependence is to use less energy.

There are no conspiracies that keep us from being independent, nor are their magical technologies that are going to fix our problems. While green energy can be a useful supplement, there is no substitute for reduced consumption. But that would require lifestyle changes that few are willing to live with.
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Old Jan 30th 2010, 11:35 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
It's actually an inconvenient truth. Fuel cells are still in the experimental stages, hydrogen is not an ideal substance to store or transport, and we could reasonably expect that most US hydrogen production would require hydrocarbons.

Those are all facts. Hoping that those facts will simply disappear is wholly unrealistic.

Energy independence for the US is a scam. The US is simply too gluttonous an energy consumer to ever be independent.

Americans don't want to hear the truth that they will never be energy independent, and that the only way for them to reduce their dependence is to use less energy.

There are no conspiracies that keep us from being independent, nor are their magical technologies that are going to fix our problems. While green energy can be a useful supplement, there is no substitute for reduced consumption. But that would require lifestyle changes that few are willing to live with.
You seem to have overlooked the fact that we already have hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines. And they require very little modification from current gasoline-consuming ones. So it really wouldn't take much for manufacturers to switch over.

The US can be energy independent. Having gasoline-powered transportation would be one step towards it since it means we have more room to decide how we were gong to produce the electricity required for producing hydrogen.
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Old Jan 31st 2010, 12:11 am
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

There will come a time that there won't be any fossil fuels any more. And what then? Alternative sources of energy have to be found and made viable before we run out of oil and coal or the world economy will collapse.
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Old Jan 31st 2010, 1:53 am
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by fatbrit
You seem to have overlooked the fact that we already have hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines. And they require very little modification from current gasoline-consuming ones. So it really wouldn't take much for manufacturers to switch over.

The US can be energy independent. Having gasoline-powered transportation would be one step towards it since it means we have more room to decide how we were gong to produce the electricity required for producing hydrogen.
I will agree with FB on this one. Honda has a vehicle already on the road called the FCX Clarity:




I couldn't find a price. It looks like it's only available at this point through a leasing program at $600/mo.

Spewing water vapor rather than noxious exhaust, the 2009 Honda FCX Clarity arrives in the summer of 2008 as the first-ever stand-alone production fuel-cell vehicle. Though other fuel-cell vehicles exist (think Chevy Equinox), they are built from existing platforms, and their components are much heavier and less efficient than those in the Clarity.

The powertrain setup in this front-wheel-drive sedan relies on an electric motor, which gets its juice from the V-Flow fuel-cell stack. Standing for vertical flow, the V-Flow design allows for a smaller, more economic setup and for cold weather starts. The fuel cell stack takes hydrogen from the rear tank and mixes it with air to power the motor. A backup lithium ion battery provides supplemental power. Together, they produce 136 hp and more than 189 ft-lbs of torque at very low RPMs. The one-speed "D" gear allows you to accelerate from 0-60 in 9 seconds. Honda has tweaked this layout since the Clarity debuted as a concept FCX in 2005, in order to produce a more streamlined car. The fuel stack is 400 pounds lighter, and Honda ditched the two-tank hydrogen setup for one 5,000-psi tank (the Equinox has two tanks totaling 10,000 psi). This actually holds more hydrogen and is more cost efficient. The sedan can run 270 miles on one tank, averaging 68 miles per kilogram (roughly equivalent to one tank of gas).

By putting the motor up front, the fuel-cell stack under the seats, and the tank just in front of the rear wheels, the 2009 FCX Clarity can be given a more cab-forward profile and maintain a spacious interior and 13-cubic-foot trunk - unusual for a fuel-cell car. The long windshield that sweeps almost back to the rear seats lends a bullet-like appearance to the sedan. Honda has also focused on giving the Clarity a quiet, smooth ride by putting it on a double wishbone suspension. Though the fuel-cell stack/electric motor give out an identifiable whine at first, once at cruising speed, the Clarity quiets down.

Inside, you'll feel like you're in any other Honda. Power features, adapative cruise control, a CD player and remote entry are all standard. Top-notch safety features include six airbags, ABS brakes, and traction and stability control. Extending its eco-friendly profile, even the cloth seats are made from recycled fermented corn, and the climate control is delivered through the seats so as to be more a more efficient use of energy.

The drawbacks to the world's first fuel-cell car? Cost and lack of filling stations. Honda is addressing the cost issue right now by offering the 2009 FCX Clarity only as a leased vehicle, for $600 a month. And these will be available only in parts of Southern California, since this is the location of the few hydrogen stations in the U.S. (the car can also be leased in Japan). Though Honda is working on innovations such as home refueling stations, the Clarity has a long way to go before it becomes a common sight on the road. But early reviews agree it's an impressive first step.
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Old Jan 31st 2010, 2:01 am
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Default Re: A personal opinion of the USA

Originally Posted by fatbrit
You seem to have overlooked the fact that we already have hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines.
No, we do not. We have experimental fuel cells that are not suitable for mass production or widespread distribution.

The materials used to make fuel cells are costly, and the fuel cells themselves operate at high temperatures, so they require cooling systems that are more substantial than is normally required with an internal combustion engine. They are not durable -- at this stage, they don't even last 50,000 miles. They are absolutely still in the research stage.

The reason that you don't see fuel cell cars being offered widely today is because they are not ready. All of the programs that exist today are low production experiments that are part of the R&D effort, and the vehicles themselves are not profitable.

Honda thinks that they may be ready in five years. We'll see if they're right. But as of right now, fuel cells are definitely not ready, and they may never be ready.
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