Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
Mar 17th 2011, 12:18 pm
#181
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
More good news. It has been reported that electrical power has been connected to the site. Now they will need to see if the plants without damaged control panels (likely plants housing reactors 5 and 6) will come up. Recent reports indicated that temperatures in the spent rod pools in for those reactors have been rising so if the power comes up, those plants should be stabilized quickly.
After that, they will likely have to wire the water pumps directly for the plants with damaged control panels.
The biggest problem still appears to be with the plant housing reactor 4. There has been speculation on how that problem could have happened since some say that all that would likely needed to have been done was bring a water hose into the spent pool room to fill the pool. It is possible that they manned reactors 4, 5, and 6 will so few people that it wasn't noticed that the water was low until it was too late or possibly that all the portable water pumps available were being used for the other reactors.
According to a 2001 Japanese NRC report, it was recommend that the emergency generators for nuclear power plants be move to higher ground.
After that, they will likely have to wire the water pumps directly for the plants with damaged control panels.
The biggest problem still appears to be with the plant housing reactor 4. There has been speculation on how that problem could have happened since some say that all that would likely needed to have been done was bring a water hose into the spent pool room to fill the pool. It is possible that they manned reactors 4, 5, and 6 will so few people that it wasn't noticed that the water was low until it was too late or possibly that all the portable water pumps available were being used for the other reactors.
According to a 2001 Japanese NRC report, it was recommend that the emergency generators for nuclear power plants be move to higher ground.
Mar 17th 2011, 12:22 pm
#182
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
For some of those that may be confused about different radiation levels, the following may help you understand little better the consequences of different doses.
Many of us of the older generation have heard the term RAD when referring to radiation but have never heard the word millisievert which is the more commonly used word today. 1 millisievert equals 0.1 RAD.
Some have stated that radiation could get as high as 1,000 times of normal without any long term effects for the average person. That may be true if the radiation is temporary since that dosage for a day would be equal to about the same dosage received by the average CAT Scan.
Recently it was announced that the radiation around reactor 4 was as high as 400 millisieverts per hour (probably much higher in the plant). This amount would cause radiation poisoning in 2 1/2 hours. During an explosion at a nuclear power, radiation levels can reach much higher levels causing radiation poisoning quickly.
Excessive radiation is most damaging to pregnant mothers and young children since their cells reproducing and growing.
It is unlikely that there would be any health risks to the US from radiation from Japan. First as radiation gets further away from Japan, it disperses and eventually becomes normal background radiation. When it becomes normal background radiation around the world, it is unlikely that an increase in background radiation will be able to be measured.
Next in order for radiation to get to the US, it would have to get into the jet stream at 30,000 feet up. At this height there isn't any rain clouds above the radiation so even if the plume passes over an area, only a very small amount can be released near the ground.
However, even though the amount may be small, rainfall can capture those particles and bring them to earth. Although this will likely not be harmful to humans (humans take daily showers and rains wash away radiation from the cities causing the radiation to be dispersed into large bodies of water), there has been instances of animal products. This appears to be caused by animals eating large amounts of grass or hay which contain very small amounts of radiation. This seems to be especially true for cows which can contain contaminated milk. This occurred in the UK and Poland along with some other countries during the Chernobyl disaster.
Many of us of the older generation have heard the term RAD when referring to radiation but have never heard the word millisievert which is the more commonly used word today. 1 millisievert equals 0.1 RAD.
- Total exposure per year for the average individual equals 3 millisieverts.
- Total Normal background radiation per year for the average individual equals 0.5 millisieverts.
- Total exposure for one dental x-ray equals 0.03 millisieverts.
- Total exposure for a full mouth dental x-ray equals 0.06 millisieverts.
- Total exposure for a chest x-ray equals 0.1 millisieverts.
- Total exposure for a CAT scan is between 1.5-20 millisieverts depending on the procedure.
- Exposure for radiation therapy is typically between 20-80 millisieverts per dose. Doses are generally given over several weeks to keep the side effects down.
- Total exposure required to induce radiation poisoning is approximately 1,000 millisieverts over a short period of time. Survival rate is about 95%.
- Total exposure required to induce radiation poisoning where survival rate is 0% is 8,000 millisieverts over a short period of time.
Some have stated that radiation could get as high as 1,000 times of normal without any long term effects for the average person. That may be true if the radiation is temporary since that dosage for a day would be equal to about the same dosage received by the average CAT Scan.
Recently it was announced that the radiation around reactor 4 was as high as 400 millisieverts per hour (probably much higher in the plant). This amount would cause radiation poisoning in 2 1/2 hours. During an explosion at a nuclear power, radiation levels can reach much higher levels causing radiation poisoning quickly.
Excessive radiation is most damaging to pregnant mothers and young children since their cells reproducing and growing.
It is unlikely that there would be any health risks to the US from radiation from Japan. First as radiation gets further away from Japan, it disperses and eventually becomes normal background radiation. When it becomes normal background radiation around the world, it is unlikely that an increase in background radiation will be able to be measured.
Next in order for radiation to get to the US, it would have to get into the jet stream at 30,000 feet up. At this height there isn't any rain clouds above the radiation so even if the plume passes over an area, only a very small amount can be released near the ground.
However, even though the amount may be small, rainfall can capture those particles and bring them to earth. Although this will likely not be harmful to humans (humans take daily showers and rains wash away radiation from the cities causing the radiation to be dispersed into large bodies of water), there has been instances of animal products. This appears to be caused by animals eating large amounts of grass or hay which contain very small amounts of radiation. This seems to be especially true for cows which can contain contaminated milk. This occurred in the UK and Poland along with some other countries during the Chernobyl disaster.
Mar 17th 2011, 1:32 pm
#183
Sleepless In Chicago
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
Don't **** with my milk!!!
Mar 17th 2011, 2:16 pm
#184
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
It appears that the Japanese haven't had very much luck with either the water drops from the helicopters or spraying from the water cannons. The main problem with the water drops is that they have to drop the water from too high of a height due to the high levels of radiation at lower heights. The main problem with the water cannons is that they can't get as close as 50 yards to the plant due to the high radiation levels near the building.
However, they are now dispatching fire trucks used to fight high rise fires to the site. I suspect they will try to attach the hose to the end of the ladder and then extend the ladder to get closer to the plant.
However, they are now dispatching fire trucks used to fight high rise fires to the site. I suspect they will try to attach the hose to the end of the ladder and then extend the ladder to get closer to the plant.
Mar 17th 2011, 8:45 pm
#185
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
According to Bloomberg News, it has been reported by the utility company that the spent fuel pool in reactor 4 is now full of water. If that is true (CNN has not reported that yet), the is really great news and I suspect that they got the fire truck to the site with an attached hose and camera to the ladder to guide the ladder and to determine if the water was going into the pool.
Earlier today two so called experts were debating whether the spent fuel was in its final stage (molten lava at the bottom) of meltdown. They both agreed that if it was in the final stage, adding water would make it worse since it would just throw radiated steam plums in the air. However the person that seemed to be more of an expert indicated that it couldn't have gotten to that stage yet since it take a long time to get to that stage. If the pool is full, he was right.
Also the power line that was connected to the plant came from about a mile away where they installed a generator. I guess completing the road to the site caused all the good things to start to happen.
It was reported today that the Japanese has connected power to reactors 5 and 6 and is trying to connect power to the plant for reactor 2 (the plant that has the sides and roof in tact but had an explosion). They claim that the area where they were working on reactor 2 had the radiation rise from 3 millisieverts per hour to 20 millisieverts per hour but are continuing to work at that site.
Reactor 3 appears to be the biggest worry since it is suspected that the containment vessel has been breached.
Earlier today two so called experts were debating whether the spent fuel was in its final stage (molten lava at the bottom) of meltdown. They both agreed that if it was in the final stage, adding water would make it worse since it would just throw radiated steam plums in the air. However the person that seemed to be more of an expert indicated that it couldn't have gotten to that stage yet since it take a long time to get to that stage. If the pool is full, he was right.
Also the power line that was connected to the plant came from about a mile away where they installed a generator. I guess completing the road to the site caused all the good things to start to happen.
It was reported today that the Japanese has connected power to reactors 5 and 6 and is trying to connect power to the plant for reactor 2 (the plant that has the sides and roof in tact but had an explosion). They claim that the area where they were working on reactor 2 had the radiation rise from 3 millisieverts per hour to 20 millisieverts per hour but are continuing to work at that site.
Reactor 3 appears to be the biggest worry since it is suspected that the containment vessel has been breached.
Last edited by Michael; Mar 17th 2011 at 9:18 pm.
Mar 17th 2011, 10:15 pm
#186
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
CNN is getting me frustrated with some inaccurate information about radiation. First they had a CNN contributor who is supposedly their regular expect (I suspect he doesn't have a degree in the nuclear sciences) who was having a discussion with another expert with a PHD in the nuclear sciences. The CNN contributor stated that 400 millisieverts around reactor 4 really isn't that dangerous since it is only a little over 100 times the normal radiation. The real expert corrected him and told him that was an extremely dangerous level but didn't explain why.
Then tonight, they had a CNN newsman explain the different levels of radiation including amounts received from a chest x-ray, normal background radiation, maximum radiation allowed for nuclear plant workers, and the point at which radiation poisoning starts. He also gave a nice presentation explaining what is considered relatively safe, moderate, serious, and very serious levels of radiation (0-249 is considered relatively safe, 250-349 is considered moderate, 350-999 is considered serious, and 1,000 on up is considered very serious. Up to that point every thing was presented fairly accurately with nice graphs. Then he stated "you can see that the 400 millisieverts of radiation around reactor 4 is a serious level of radiation" and didn't elaborate further.
Both the CNN contributor and the newsman seems to be confused not realizing that all the radiation levels (except the radiation around reactor 4) is the total dosage for the entire year or is the dosage provided by the treatment and therefore will be added to the other received radiation for the year and do not seem to realize that the 400 millisieverts is the dosage received during an hour. Therefore when the newsman said the 400 millisieverts is a serious level of radiation, it will be a very serious dose in 2 1/2 hours.
Then tonight, they had a CNN newsman explain the different levels of radiation including amounts received from a chest x-ray, normal background radiation, maximum radiation allowed for nuclear plant workers, and the point at which radiation poisoning starts. He also gave a nice presentation explaining what is considered relatively safe, moderate, serious, and very serious levels of radiation (0-249 is considered relatively safe, 250-349 is considered moderate, 350-999 is considered serious, and 1,000 on up is considered very serious. Up to that point every thing was presented fairly accurately with nice graphs. Then he stated "you can see that the 400 millisieverts of radiation around reactor 4 is a serious level of radiation" and didn't elaborate further.
Both the CNN contributor and the newsman seems to be confused not realizing that all the radiation levels (except the radiation around reactor 4) is the total dosage for the entire year or is the dosage provided by the treatment and therefore will be added to the other received radiation for the year and do not seem to realize that the 400 millisieverts is the dosage received during an hour. Therefore when the newsman said the 400 millisieverts is a serious level of radiation, it will be a very serious dose in 2 1/2 hours.
Last edited by Michael; Mar 17th 2011 at 10:20 pm.
Mar 18th 2011, 11:23 am
#187
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
According to Bloomberg News, it has been reported by the utility company that the spent fuel pool in reactor 4 is now full of water. If that is true (CNN has not reported that yet), the is really great news and I suspect that they got the fire truck to the site with an attached hose and camera to the ladder to guide the ladder and to determine if the water was going into the pool.
Earlier today two so called experts were debating whether the spent fuel was in its final stage (molten lava at the bottom) of meltdown. They both agreed that if it was in the final stage, adding water would make it worse since it would just throw radiated steam plums in the air. However the person that seemed to be more of an expert indicated that it couldn't have gotten to that stage yet since it take a long time to get to that stage. If the pool is full, he was right.
Also the power line that was connected to the plant came from about a mile away where they installed a generator. I guess completing the road to the site caused all the good things to start to happen.
It was reported today that the Japanese has connected power to reactors 5 and 6 and is trying to connect power to the plant for reactor 2 (the plant that has the sides and roof in tact but had an explosion). They claim that the area where they were working on reactor 2 had the radiation rise from 3 millisieverts per hour to 20 millisieverts per hour but are continuing to work at that site.
Reactor 3 appears to be the biggest worry since it is suspected that the containment vessel has been breached.
Earlier today two so called experts were debating whether the spent fuel was in its final stage (molten lava at the bottom) of meltdown. They both agreed that if it was in the final stage, adding water would make it worse since it would just throw radiated steam plums in the air. However the person that seemed to be more of an expert indicated that it couldn't have gotten to that stage yet since it take a long time to get to that stage. If the pool is full, he was right.
Also the power line that was connected to the plant came from about a mile away where they installed a generator. I guess completing the road to the site caused all the good things to start to happen.
It was reported today that the Japanese has connected power to reactors 5 and 6 and is trying to connect power to the plant for reactor 2 (the plant that has the sides and roof in tact but had an explosion). They claim that the area where they were working on reactor 2 had the radiation rise from 3 millisieverts per hour to 20 millisieverts per hour but are continuing to work at that site.
Reactor 3 appears to be the biggest worry since it is suspected that the containment vessel has been breached.
I won't make that mistake again on something that significant. If I don't have at least two reputable news sources for a significant event, it probably isn't true.
Mar 18th 2011, 11:47 am
#188
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
So Nissan is checking cars for radiation levels before export...just wondering if there really would be a problem there?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
Mar 18th 2011, 11:54 am
#189
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
So Nissan is checking cars for radiation levels before export...just wondering if there really would be a problem there?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
Mar 18th 2011, 12:18 pm
#190
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
So Nissan is checking cars for radiation levels before export...just wondering if there really would be a problem there?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
And some other report saying that production across the world could be affected because parts from Japan aren't being manufactured and/or exported but didn't elaborate on what parts, so at a guess, safety electronics? But how could that really affect say the US production companies?
But the Japanese motor industry is losing $150M a day through lack of production and that's one industry alone, that's a big wedge of cash. How long before that becomes a problem with car repairs or sales stock?
Also 4 medium sized Silicon Valley companies have already announced parts shortages and will have a problem meeting shipments. That is what happens when they use "Just in Time" manufacturing.
It is not only shortages but price increases. I was thinking of purchasing HP and Intel stock during the market pullback but I am no longer sure. HP probably uses a lot of proprietary parts from Japan and Intel can't sell it's microprocessors if the manufacturers can't populate motherboards with Japanese chips. I suspect some companies are already frantically redesigning their motherboards to use Korean and US proprietary parts.
http://www.torontosun.com/tech/news/.../17627456.html
Mar 18th 2011, 12:40 pm
#191
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
GM closed a plant in LA due to a lack of parts. I think they were manufacturing a Toyota under their name but with a different exterior look.
Also 4 medium sized Silicon Valley companies have already announced parts shortages and will have a problem meeting shipments. That is what happens when they use "Just in Time" manufacturing.
It is not only shortages but price increases. I was thinking of purchasing HP and Intel stock during the market pullback but I am no longer sure. HP probably uses a lot of proprietary parts from Japan and Intel can't sell it's microprocessors if the manufacturers can't populate motherboards with Japanese chips. I suspect some companies are already frantically redesigning their motherboards to use Korean and US proprietary parts.
http://www.torontosun.com/tech/news/.../17627456.html
Also 4 medium sized Silicon Valley companies have already announced parts shortages and will have a problem meeting shipments. That is what happens when they use "Just in Time" manufacturing.
It is not only shortages but price increases. I was thinking of purchasing HP and Intel stock during the market pullback but I am no longer sure. HP probably uses a lot of proprietary parts from Japan and Intel can't sell it's microprocessors if the manufacturers can't populate motherboards with Japanese chips. I suspect some companies are already frantically redesigning their motherboards to use Korean and US proprietary parts.
http://www.torontosun.com/tech/news/.../17627456.html
I was surprised by how much serious R&D tech and manufacturing still actually happens in Japan these days, I thought they'd off loaded a lot of that to cheaper locations.
Mar 18th 2011, 12:55 pm
#192
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
It's weird how so many other industries are being affected by this. Makes you wonder how things will change in the future and if those tech companies will be able to come back to their full strength in time if everyone else is looking for alternatives.
I was surprised by how much serious R&D tech and manufacturing still actually happens in Japan these days, I thought they'd off loaded a lot of that to cheaper locations.
I was surprised by how much serious R&D tech and manufacturing still actually happens in Japan these days, I thought they'd off loaded a lot of that to cheaper locations.
A lot of the chip manufacturing is done in the US for US companies so I'm not that surprised that Japan has so much. It is assembly that is normally farmed out overseas. In fact, Intel and AMD almost always manufacturers it latest microprocessors in the US first. Even Seagate manufacturers it latest disk drives in the US first. But all of that doesn't help when one chip is missing to create a product.
Last edited by Michael; Mar 18th 2011 at 1:03 pm.
Mar 19th 2011, 5:09 pm
#193
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
Jay Lehr science director from the Heartland Institute was on Fox News again today and made the following statements.
The radiation in the areas near the nuclear plants are not harmful to human health.
For someone to possibly have health issues from eating the contaminated spinach grown near the plant, they would need to eat a pound of spinach per day for the rest of their lives.
The worst case serenio will be that the Japanese will get the reactors under control within a week and there will not be any health issues now or in the future.
The radiation in the areas near the nuclear plants are not harmful to human health.
For someone to possibly have health issues from eating the contaminated spinach grown near the plant, they would need to eat a pound of spinach per day for the rest of their lives.
The worst case serenio will be that the Japanese will get the reactors under control within a week and there will not be any health issues now or in the future.
Mar 20th 2011, 8:05 am
#194
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
New Orleans also has another problem delaying redevelopment in that about 200,000 people have left New Orleans and still haven't returned. It wouldn't make much sense to build houses and apartments if there isn't anyone there to buy or rent the properties.
Mar 20th 2011, 8:47 am
#195
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Re: Japan 8.9 Earthquake & Tsunami
After stringing a new power line to the plant from the electric grid, company officials reported on Saturday that they had reconnected coolant pumps in reactor Nos. 5 and 6 and restored the flow of water to the spent fuel cooling pools in those buildings. In the day since, temperatures in those pools have returned to near normal.
Officials at Tokyo Electric Power Co., which owns the plant 140 miles north of Tokyo, said they had managed to restore power to a switchboard at the No. 2 reactor at the plant, but have not yet been able to restore coolant flow in the reactor.
Authorities are much more concerned about reactors No. 2 and No. 3 and the spent fuel pool at No. 4. The reactor containment vessel at No. 2 may be cracked and venting some radioactive gases into the environment. Reactor No. 3 is the only reactor at the site that contains plutonium in the fuel rods and its escape would be extremely dangerous because it is carcinogenic in even minute doses. And the spent fuel pool at reactor building No. 4 is thought to have boiled dry, allowing the fuel rods to heat up and become damaged, also releasing radioactivity into the environment.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...,7441237.story
Officials at Tokyo Electric Power Co., which owns the plant 140 miles north of Tokyo, said they had managed to restore power to a switchboard at the No. 2 reactor at the plant, but have not yet been able to restore coolant flow in the reactor.
Authorities are much more concerned about reactors No. 2 and No. 3 and the spent fuel pool at No. 4. The reactor containment vessel at No. 2 may be cracked and venting some radioactive gases into the environment. Reactor No. 3 is the only reactor at the site that contains plutonium in the fuel rods and its escape would be extremely dangerous because it is carcinogenic in even minute doses. And the spent fuel pool at reactor building No. 4 is thought to have boiled dry, allowing the fuel rods to heat up and become damaged, also releasing radioactivity into the environment.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...,7441237.story
