$153k Snakebite

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Old Aug 14th 2015, 3:34 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by audio
Why is the US so bloody expensive for this sort of thing? Even for pets the cost is outrageous. One anti-venom shot for my dog (he would possibly need several)will cost from $900-$1,400 VetMed. UFL tell me.
I own an Animal Emergency Hospital. Antivenom is expensive because it is hard to produce, and the manufacturers charge a premium for it. Until recently our antivenom had a short shelf life, so factored in to the cost was also the expectation of high wastage. We now stock a newer product with a 1 year shelf life, and have been able to reduce the cost accordingly.


Originally Posted by kimilseung
Vets seem to expect that animals will have all the health care given to humans. I think one of our cats is only alive due to the peer pressure put upon my wife to spend a mini fortune on it rather than have it put down. The daft cat has no idea how lucky it was that it was my wife and not me who took it to the vet, after being hit by a car.
Many pet owners expect, and even demand, their animals have all the health care given to humans. Different people view their pets differently. We ourselves spent $10,000+ on one of our horses with colic that required surgery. This was when my wife was still in vet school. It completely wiped out our bank account.
Offering the best care available, in my opinion, is the right thing to do. Whether the owner chooses to follow that advice is another matter. We always offer what we would do if it were our pet, and then decide with the client on what they feel comfortable doing, and the associated risks with only doing partial treatment. It is not about pressuring the owner in to doing something, it is about allowing them to make informed decisions. Primarily the pets interest is what we represent. The owner then decides on how to address that. Sometimes it is in the pets best interest to be euthanized, and we share that with the owner. We don't treat for the sake of treating.
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Old Aug 14th 2015, 4:55 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by thinbrit
I own an Animal Emergency Hospital. Antivenom is expensive because it is hard to produce, and the manufacturers charge a premium for it. Until recently our antivenom had a short shelf life, so factored in to the cost was also the expectation of high wastage. We now stock a newer product with a 1 year shelf life, and have been able to reduce the cost accordingly.
I understand what you are saying but will you divulge what cost is the anti-venom to you and what price you sell it for? Of course I presume out of date venom is tax deductible.
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Old Aug 14th 2015, 8:52 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by scot47
Q. "Why is the US so bloody expensive for this sort of thing?"

A Capitalism, red in tooth and claw !
Have you seen the size of the debt they are on the hook for?
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Old Aug 16th 2015, 7:29 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by audio
I understand what you are saying but will you divulge what cost is the anti-venom to you and what price you sell it for? Of course I presume out of date venom is tax deductible.
Last order was $502.76 for a vial. Presuming no wastage, the vial 'retails' for $725. Antivenom has the lowest markup at my hospital. If we receive a case from a good samaritan that found an injured animal, we may eat that whole $502.76 treating a bite wound.

For a standard dispensed medications there is an average markup of 150 percent (heart worm, flea control products and oncology medications are 100%) . Drugs we carry that typically stay on the shelf for 3 months or more have a 200% to 275% markup to cover carrying costs. Some items also have a $9 - $14 dispensing fee.

Losses are of course tax deductible, but you don't go in to business to make a loss. Whilst throwing away a $500 vial of expired antivenom is tax deductible, I'd rather keep the $500 in the business account and pay tax on it.
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Old Aug 16th 2015, 7:36 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by thinbrit
Last order was $502.76 for a vial. Presuming no wastage, the vial 'retails' for $725. Antivenom has the lowest markup at my hospital. If we receive a case from a good samaritan that found an injured animal, we may eat that whole $502.76 treating a bite wound.

For a standard dispensed medications there is an average markup of 150 percent (heart worm, flea control products and oncology medications are 100%) . Drugs we carry that typically stay on the shelf for 3 months or more have a 200% to 275% markup to cover carrying costs. Some items also have a $9 - $14 dispensing fee.

Losses are of course tax deductible, but you don't go in to business to make a loss. Whilst throwing away a $500 vial of expired antivenom is tax deductible, I'd rather keep the $500 in the business account and pay tax on it.
Thank you for your prompt and concise reply.
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Old Aug 16th 2015, 10:09 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by thinbrit
Last order was $502.76 for a vial. Presuming no wastage, the vial 'retails' for $725. Antivenom has the lowest markup at my hospital. If we receive a case from a good samaritan that found an injured animal, we may eat that whole $502.76 treating a bite wound.

For a standard dispensed medications there is an average markup of 150 percent (heart worm, flea control products and oncology medications are 100%) . Drugs we carry that typically stay on the shelf for 3 months or more have a 200% to 275% markup to cover carrying costs. Some items also have a $9 - $14 dispensing fee.

Losses are of course tax deductible, but you don't go in to business to make a loss. Whilst throwing away a $500 vial of expired antivenom is tax deductible, I'd rather keep the $500 in the business account and pay tax on it.
Just curious, do you get a fair amount of snake bite pet patients?

I asked our vet if they carry anti-venom and they don't, but then we don't exactly have many if any rattle snakes in this area so makes sense a vet wouldn't carry it.
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Old Aug 18th 2015, 6:59 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by Jsmth321
Just curious, do you get a fair amount of snake bite pet patients?

I asked our vet if they carry anti-venom and they don't, but then we don't exactly have many if any rattle snakes in this area so makes sense a vet wouldn't carry it.
It is a seasonal thing, with summer being the worst time for snake bites. My hospital is between the DFW Metroplex and a mainly rural area, so we see a reasonable amount of snakebites (mainly from the rural areas). During the last dry spell we saw an increasing number of snakebites (thought to be related to snakes traveling in to more populated areas in search of water).

We do not typically do preventative treatments, we are an emergency and critical care hospital (open 24/7/365) so we tend to stock things that a 'regular' vet does not. Most snakebites are referred to us for treatment, but we do 'loan' or sell our product if another hospital has run out and needs some. It is a very close-knit community of veterinarians, and being able to call on each other is important. We once entered a busy holiday weekend and discovered to our horror that a contractor had unplugged on of the refrigerators containing all our plasma. As we could not determine how long it had been unplugged and did not have an idea if it had spoiled, we had to throw it all away; being able to drive to another ER across town and borrow enough to get us over the weekend was a life safer, quite literally. All our refrigerators now have power loss alarms and a digital device that constantly logs temperature for review.
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Old Aug 18th 2015, 7:25 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by thinbrit
It is a seasonal thing, with summer being the worst time for snake bites. My hospital is between the DFW Metroplex and a mainly rural area, so we see a reasonable amount of snakebites (mainly from the rural areas). During the last dry spell we saw an increasing number of snakebites (thought to be related to snakes traveling in to more populated areas in search of water).

We do not typically do preventative treatments, we are an emergency and critical care hospital (open 24/7/365) so we tend to stock things that a 'regular' vet does not. Most snakebites are referred to us for treatment, but we do 'loan' or sell our product if another hospital has run out and needs some. It is a very close-knit community of veterinarians, and being able to call on each other is important. We once entered a busy holiday weekend and discovered to our horror that a contractor had unplugged on of the refrigerators containing all our plasma. As we could not determine how long it had been unplugged and did not have an idea if it had spoiled, we had to throw it all away; being able to drive to another ER across town and borrow enough to get us over the weekend was a life safer, quite literally. All our refrigerators now have power loss alarms and a digital device that constantly logs temperature for review.
Thanks. Being an emergency hospital makes sense you'd need things a normal office may not need.

No ER vets in our town though, but our vet has after hours on call service for emergencies if needed.

Luckily rattle snakes have a large but limited range here, and we are outside that range by a fair amount so not likely our pup will run into one.
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Old Aug 24th 2015, 3:09 am
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by thinbrit
It is a seasonal thing, with summer being the worst time for snake bites. My hospital is between the DFW Metroplex and a mainly rural area, so we see a reasonable amount of snakebites (mainly from the rural areas). During the last dry spell we saw an increasing number of snakebites (thought to be related to snakes traveling in to more populated areas in search of water).
Is the anti-venin species specific ?
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Old Aug 28th 2015, 7:18 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by steveq
Is the anti-venin species specific ?
Absolutely.

This thread reminds me of a hilarious encounter between Douglas Adams (of "Hitchhikers Guide" fame) and Dr. Struan Sutherland, a famous Australian herpetologist. As recounted in Adams' book "Last Chance to See" (which is great and you should read if you haven't):

There is in Melbourne a man who probably knows more about poisonous snakes than anyone else on earth. his name is Dr Struan Sutherland, and he has devoted his entire life to a study of venom.

‘And I’m bored with it,’ he said when we went along to see him the next morning. ‘Can’t stand all these poisonous creatures, all these snakes and insects and fish and things. Stupid things, biting everybody. And then people expect me to tell them what to do about it. I’ll tell them what to do. Don’t get bitten in the first place. That’s the answer. I’ve had enough of it. Hydroponics, now, that’s interesting. Talk to you all you like about hydroponics. Fascinating stuff, growing plants artificially in water, very interesting technique. We’ll need to know all about it if we’re go to Mars and places. Where did you say you were going?’

‘Komodo’

‘Well, don’t get bitten, that’s all I can say. And don’t come running to me if you do because you won’t get here in time and anyway I’ll probably be out. Hate this office, look at it. Full of poisonous animals all over the place. Look at this tank, it’s full of fire ants. Poisonous. Bored silly with them. Anyway, I got some little cakes in in case you were hungry. Would you like some little cakes? I can’t remember where I put them. There’s some tea but it’s not very good. Sit down for heaven’s sake.

‘So, you’re going to Komodo. Well, I don’t know why you want to do that, but I suppose you have your reasons. There are fifteen different types of snakes on Komodo, and half of them are poisonous. The only potentially deadly ones are the Russell’s viper, the bamboo viper, and the Indian cobra.

‘The Indian cobra is the fifteenth deadliest snake in the world, and all the other fourteen are here in Australia. That’s why it’s so hard for me to find time to get on with my hydroponics, with all these snakes all over the place.

We… asked him how many of the snakes he had been bitten by himself.

‘None of ’em’ he said. ‘Another area of expertise I’ve developed is that of getting other people to handle the dangerous animals. Won’t do it myself. Don’t want to get bitten do I? You know what it says in my entry in Who’s Who? “Hobbies: gardening – with gloves; fishing – with boots; traveling – with care.” That’s the answer. Oh, and wear baggy trousers. When a snake strikes it starts to inject venom as soon as it hits something. If you’ve got baggy trousers most of the venom will just get squirted down the inside of your trousers which is better than down the inside of your leg. You’re not eating your cakes. Come on, get them down you, there’s plenty more in the fridge.’

‘So what do we do if we get bitten by something deadly, then?’ I asked.
He blinked at me as if I were stupid.

‘Well what do you think you do?’ he said. ‘You die of course. That’s what deadly means.’

‘But what about cutting open the wound and sucking out the poison?’ I asked.

‘Rather you than me,’ he said. ‘I wouldn’t want a mouthful of poison. all the blood vessels beneath the tongue are very close to the surface so the poison goes straight into the bloodstream. That’s assuming you could get much of the poison out, which you probably couldn’t. And in a place like Komodo it means you’d quickly have a seriously infected wound to contend with as well as a leg full of poison. Septicaemia, gangrene, you name it. It’ll kill you.’

‘What about a tourniquet?’

‘Fine if you don’t mind having your leg off afterwards. You’d have to because it would be dead. And if you find anyone in that part of Indonesia who you’d trust to take your leg off then you’re a braver man than me. No, I’ll tell you: the only thing you can do is apply a pressure bandage direct to the wound and wrap the whole leg up tightly, but not too tightly. Slow the blood flow but don’t cut it off or you’ll lose the leg. keep the leg, or whatever bit of you it is you’ve been bitten in, lower than your heart and your head. Keep very, very still, breathe slowly and get to a doctor immediately. If you’re on Komodo that means a couple of days, by which time you’ll be well dead.

“The only answer, and I mean this quite seriously, is don’t get bitten. There’s no reason why you should. Any of the snakes there will get out of your way well before you even see them. You don’t really need to worry about the snakes if you’re careful. No, the things you really need to worry about are the marine creatures.’

‘What?’

‘Scorpion fish, stone fish, sea snakes. Much more poisonous than anything on land. Get stung by a stone fish and the pain alone can kill you. People drown themselves to stop the pain.’

‘Where are all these things?’

‘Oh, just in the sea. Tons of them. I wouldn’t go near it if I were you. Full of poisonous animals. Hate them.’

‘Is there anything you do like?’

‘Hydroponics.’

No, I mean is there any venomous creature you’re particularly fond of?’

He looked out of the window for a moment.
‘There was,’ he said, ‘but she left me’.
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Old Aug 28th 2015, 8:13 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by steveq
Is the anti-venin species specific ?
Vet student at UFL told me that one type of anti-venom was good for Copperheads, rattlers, moccasins and pigmy rattlers but a different one was needed for coral snakes.
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Old Aug 28th 2015, 9:04 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Originally Posted by audio
Vet student at UFL told me that one type of anti-venom was good for Copperheads, rattlers, moccasins and pigmy rattlers but a different one was needed for coral snakes.
I meant for the bitten animal. Is antivenin for humans the same as for dogs...
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Old Aug 28th 2015, 11:04 pm
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Default Re: $153k Snakebite

Anti-Venom is a very time consuming and resource heavy medication to make, and because of that is very high price tag attached to it because of that.

It's also a very manual and time consuming task to get the venom needed to begin the process.

Antivenom: how it's made and why it's so precious


I do see why the stuff costs so much, and why some companies have stopped making it altogether.
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