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-   -   Commonwealth v EU (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/commonwealth-v-eu-928443/)

Shard Oct 10th 2019 12:13 pm

Commonwealth v EU
 
Bipat, you are cordially invited to make your case. First, please explain when so-called CW FOM started and ended, and what level of free movement existed between the CW countries. Please explain in a few sentences rather than posting links (unless a point is being disputed).

DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 12:26 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 
http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/me...Hj2w/giphy.gif

spouse of scouse Oct 10th 2019 12:51 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746555)

Chew with your mouth closed! Love, Mum.

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 1:28 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12746548)
Bipat, you are cordially invited to make your case. First, please explain when so-called CW FOM started and ended, and what level of free movement existed between the CW countries. Please explain in a few sentences rather than posting links (unless a point is being disputed).

All citizens of the British Empire were British subjects.
1949---British Nationality Act.
1952 ---Commonwealth Immigrants Act.

The 1952 Act ended the automatic right of Commonwealth citizens to settle in the UK.

(At the independence of individual commonwealth countries they each made their own rules regarding settlement of British subjects into their countries).

Shard Oct 10th 2019 1:34 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746584)
All citizens of the British Empire were British subjects.
1949---British Nationality Act.
1952 ---Commonwealth Immigrants Act.

The 1952 Act ended the automatic right of Commonwealth citizens to settle in the UK.

(At the independence of individual commonwealth countries they each made their own rules regarding settlement of British subjects into their countries).

If that's the case, no automatic right since 1952, and quasi rights for only three years prior, then I don't see why you arguing about CW FOM in relation to EU FOM. These are two separate issues and separate histories (70 years apart - almost a century, Bipat).

Watchpost Oct 10th 2019 1:35 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746573)
You introduced into the discussion a Commonwealth country. Post 15290------Should we not reply?

I mentioned Mumbai in the first instance because I knew the city had a major overpopulation problem and I presumed you were familiar with it. I could equally have chosen Mexico City, or Beijing, or a host of other megacities.

There are however interesting parallels between the British Empire and the EU regarding freedom of movement, as the article I linked to shows.

Shard Oct 10th 2019 1:42 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Watchpost (Post 12746589)
I

There are however interesting parallels between the British Empire and the EU regarding freedom of movement, as the article I linked to shows.

In the process of reading it.

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 1:53 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Watchpost (Post 12746589)
I mentioned Mumbai in the first instance because I knew the city had a major overpopulation problem and I presumed you were familiar with it. I could equally have chosen Mexico City, or Beijing, or a host of other megacities.

There are however interesting parallels between the British Empire and the EU regarding freedom of movement, as the article I linked to shows.

The bit about turning citizens into migrants was also interesting and apt.

I remember people of my parents' generation complaining about how "now they all have British passports and can just move here" - and no, they weren't talking about the white settlers.

Red Eric Oct 10th 2019 1:53 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746584)
All citizens of the British Empire were British subjects.
1949---British Nationality Act.
1952 ---Commonwealth Immigrants Act.

The 1952 Act ended the automatic right of Commonwealth citizens to settle in the UK.

(At the independence of individual commonwealth countries they each made their own rules regarding settlement of British subjects into their countries).

So, prior to the ending of the automatic right of settlement in the UK, there were 7 members other than UK - namely Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka and the latter 3 had all joined within the previous 5 years.

Not exactly the most comprehensive of arrangements, especially given the comparative difficulty and expense of travel in those days.

I wonder what it was that occasioned the abrupt ending of it?

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 1:55 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746584)
All citizens of the British Empire were British subjects.
1949---British Nationality Act.
1952 ---Commonwealth Immigrants Act.

The 1952 Act ended the automatic right of Commonwealth citizens to settle in the UK.

(At the independence of individual commonwealth countries they each made their own rules regarding settlement of British subjects into their countries).


1962, no?

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 1:57 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12746564)
Chew with your mouth closed! Love, Mum.


Thank you.

Open-mouthed chewing should lead to automatic deportation :frown:

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 1:58 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12746587)
If that's the case, no automatic right since 1952, and quasi rights for only three years prior, then I don't see why you arguing about CW FOM in relation to EU FOM. These are two separate issues and separate histories (70 years apart - almost a century, Bipat).

They were not "quasi rights', the 1949 Act just put into settled law what had been the 'rights' under the Empire rule.

I mentioned it in relation to EU FOM to indicate stopping Commonwealth FOM did not end migration, or necessarily end good relationship with the countries.

Red Eric Oct 10th 2019 1:58 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746606)
1962, no?

History nazi.

Shard Oct 10th 2019 2:01 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746608)
I mentioned it in relation to EU FOM to indicate stopping Commonwealth FOM did not end migration, or necessarily end good relationship with the countries.

Excellent straw man.

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:02 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746606)
1962, no?

Absolutely correct----choked on my cheddar cheese sandwich at my memory lapse.:lol:

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 2:02 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12746609)
History nazi.

Do I get a free uniform with that?

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12746609)
History nazi.

No, it was an important mistake to correct.

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746614)
Absolutely correct----choked on my cheddar cheese sandwich at my memory lapse.:lol:


I hope that was proper British cheddar. With chutney....


Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 2:05 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746617)
No, it was an important mistake to correct.


Light-hearted comment!


Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:10 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12746604)
So, prior to the ending of the automatic right of settlement in the UK, there were 7 members other than UK - namely Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka and the latter 3 had all joined within the previous 5 years.

Not exactly the most comprehensive of arrangements, especially given the comparative difficulty and expense of travel in those days.

I wonder what it was that occasioned the abrupt ending of it?

They didn't have any difficulty coming and going by ship until the 1960s.

Enoch Powell had a hand in ending FOM, however it would have to be ended with increasing numbers.





Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:12 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746618)
I hope that was proper British cheddar. With chutney....

Who knows? So much imported stuff nowadays!

Red Eric Oct 10th 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746620)
Light-hearted comment!

Light hearts will be banned under the cumming regime.

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 2:15 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12746628)
Light hearts will be banned under the cumming regime.

I know Paulry is likely to have us up before the People's Court.

Lion in Winter Oct 10th 2019 2:16 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746627)
Who knows? So much imported stuff nowadays!


Please don't tell me that India is importing chutney.

DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746630)
Please don't tell me that India is importing chutney.

Or that the UK is importing Cheddar...

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:22 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12746630)
Please don't tell me that India is importing chutney.

Am in UK at moment. OH has taken a jar of Branston to India in past!
Can't get decent cheese there, had quite a 'serious' argument with a person ---that no --Kraft slices are NOT real cheese!:lol:

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 2:26 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746632)
Or that the UK is importing Cheddar...

It does apparently, tons of it from EU.

Shard Oct 10th 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746637)
It does apparently, tons of it from EU.

Ireland?

DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 2:45 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746637)
It does apparently, tons of it from EU.

Tariff-free at the moment. But WTO tariffs will be £221 per tonne. https://www.bigissue.com/latest/no-d...eddar-deficit/

So, back to Commonwealth FoM. The British Nationality Act made them all British citizens, all 850 million of them. So that means it wasn't Commonwealth FoM but Brits exercising their right to enter the UK under UK law. The 1962 Act ended their right to automatically be classed as British citizens, but still didn't give an automatic right of free movement, so still no Commonwealth FoM. So where has this Commonwealth FoM you speak of come from?

Commonwealth nationals still have the right to enter the UK as visitors for up to 6 months in any 12-month period without needing a visit visa (unless they're married to a Brit, who are heavily scrutinised by immigration on arrival as potential over-stayers if they don't have a Spouse visa.

BritInParis Oct 10th 2019 3:10 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746647)
Tariff-free at the moment. But WTO tariffs will be £221 per tonne. https://www.bigissue.com/latest/no-d...eddar-deficit/

So, back to Commonwealth FoM. The British Nationality Act made them all British citizens, all 850 million of them. So that means it wasn't Commonwealth FoM but Brits exercising their right to enter the UK under UK law. The 1962 Act ended their right to automatically be classed as British citizens, but still didn't give an automatic right of free movement, so still no Commonwealth FoM. So where has this Commonwealth FoM you speak of come from?

Commonwealth nationals still have the right to enter the UK as visitors for up to 6 months in any 12-month period without needing a visit visa (unless they're married to a Brit, who are heavily scrutinised by immigration on arrival as potential over-stayers if they don't have a Spouse visa.

Not sure there’s a single correct fact in that entire post, Dave. Want to give it another go?

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746647)
Tariff-free at the moment. But WTO tariffs will be £221 per tonne. https://www.bigissue.com/latest/no-d...eddar-deficit/

1) So, back to Commonwealth FoM. The British Nationality Act made them all British citizens, all 850 million of them. So that means it wasn't Commonwealth FoM but Brits exercising their right to enter the UK under UK law. The 1962 Act ended their right to automatically be classed as British citizens, but still didn't give an automatic right of free movement, so still no Commonwealth FoM. So where has this Commonwealth FoM you speak of come from?

2) Commonwealth nationals still have the right to enter the UK as visitors for up to 6 months in any 12-month period without needing a visit visa (unless they're married to a Brit, who are heavily scrutinised by immigration on arrival as potential over-stayers if they don't have a Spouse visa.


The 1949 Act made them Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Individual countries could legislate for their own citizenship but retain CUKC if they wished. So therefore they could have a 'foreign' passport and still have FOM into the UK.

You are 'splitting hairs'----The country I know--- they were Indian with Indian passports, after independence. Also as citizens of the Commonwealth---they had FOM into the UK until 1962.

1962 ended the right of free movement.

2) They don't have that right !!!!! I don't know about all Commonwealth countries, certainly those from India have to have a visitor visa!!!! They still have to be sponsored even for a visitor visa, although recently, to my relief, (can't remember which year) the sponsorship doesn't now have to be signed by a notary public.


To return to cheddar cheese-----Most of the imported dairy products are from Ireland but added together the amount from several other EU countries is almost equal.

DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 3:34 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12746653)
Not sure there’s a single correct fact in that entire post, Dave. Want to give it another go?

I disagree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ality_Act_1948

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/bre...y-citizenship/


The fluidity of British citizenship over time

Until the passing of the 1948 British Nationality Act (BNA), there had been no formal designation of citizenship within Britain or the British Empire at large. Instead, there was a general understanding that all those who were subject to British rule were British subjects. This had had few political consequences for those living in Britain at the height of empire. But during the period of decolonisation, and the voluntary movement of people to the metropole, this changed.

British citizenship, together with the right to live and work in Britain, was afforded to in excess of 850 million people in 1948.

The BNA was passed in light of India gaining her independence in 1947 and the white settler dominion colonies of Canada, New Zealand, and Australia set to become fully independent in 1948. As Britain was still an imperial state, despite these losses, the form of citizenship outlined in the BNA was shared across the UK, its colonies, its former colonies, and its dominion territories. These were ‘Citizen of the UK and its Colonies’ and ‘Commonwealth Citizen’ (all those from the former colonies and dominions such as India, Canada, Australia etc. were eligible); there was no separate or distinct category of citizenship for people in Britain. At the point of setting out the BNA in 1948, then, British citizenship, together with the right to live and work in Britain, was afforded to in excess of 850 million people (albeit within the white dominion whites-only immigration policies excluded fellow British subjects).
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/all-c...e-visa-johnson


Commonwealth Citizens are about to benefit from the recent UK free-visa endorsement.

With Mrs Theresa May as the new British Prime Minister, UK has announced a visa-free entry for all commonwealth citizens.
As for the potential overstaying assumption by UK immigration, it happened to my wife and has been documented a number of times. But here's another https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9097531.html

DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 3:35 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746657)
The 1949 Act made them Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Individual countries could legislate for their own citizenship but retain CUKC if they wished. So therefore they could have a 'foreign' passport and still have FOM into the UK.

You are 'splitting hairs'----The country I know--- they were Indian with Indian passports, after independence. Also as citizens of the Commonwealth---they had FOM into the UK until 1962.

1962 ended the right of free movement.

2) They don't have that right !!!!! I don't know about all Commonwealth countries, certainly those from India have to have a visitor visa!!!! They still have to be sponsored even for a visitor visa, although recently, to my relief, (can't remember which year) the sponsorship doesn't now have to be signed by a notary public.


To return to cheddar cheese-----Most of the imported dairy products are from Ireland but added together the amount from several other EU countries is almost equal.

I've posted links to support my statements.

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 3:57 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746664)
I've posted links to support my statements.

DLD ---your links are not accurate.

Yes some Commonwealth countries were allowed visa free visits but not all. There were also some changes to student visas but not for all!! In fact Indian authorities reacted negatively at the time.

The rights to "live and work in Britain"----(not sure what the words 'whites-only' meant, Indians were not 'white'!) Surely you accept that was FOM???
Also they were not excluded if they also held their own independent country nationality and passports.


DaveLovesDee Oct 10th 2019 5:11 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746674)
DLD ---your links are not accurate.

Yes some Commonwealth countries were allowed visa free visits but not all. There were also some changes to student visas but not for all!! In fact Indian authorities reacted negatively at the time.

The rights to "live and work in Britain"----(not sure what the words 'whites-only' meant, Indians were not 'white'!) Surely you accept that was FOM???
Also they were not excluded if they also held their own independent country nationality and passports.

If my links are inaccurate, you need to contact the authors or publishers to correct them.

List of visa-free nationals - UK

How the Indian government reacts to UK visa changes is irrelevant.

OK, so there appears to be some Commonwealth countries who aren't visa-free to the UK. Yet it seems to be a common misconception. I apologise for my error.

It's free movement in the same sense of other British citizens returning to the UK had FoM. Being British, it's my right to enter the UK without restriction in the same way any other British citizen does. That's what the Commonwealth nationals did when made British citizens under the BNA. As for what 'whites-only' means, surely you're not ignorant of the attitudes of the day. Brits back then were happy when their new neighbour was a white Canadian or Australian/New Zealander, not so much if they were from the Caribbean or the Indian sub-continent. It still happens, though less overtly.

Bipat Oct 10th 2019 6:45 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12746712)
1) If my links are inaccurate, you need to contact the authors or publishers to correct them.

List of visa-free nationals - UK

How the Indian government reacts to UK visa changes is irrelevant.

1) OK, so there appears to be some Commonwealth countries who aren't visa-free to the UK. Yet it seems to be a common misconception. I apologise for my error.

2) It's free movement in the same sense of other British citizens returning to the UK had FoM. Being British, it's my right to enter the UK without restriction in the same way any other British citizen does. That's what the Commonwealth nationals did when made British citizens under the BNA. As for what 'whites-only' means, surely you're not ignorant of the attitudes of the day. Brits back then were happy when their new neighbour was a white Canadian or Australian/New Zealander, not so much if they were from the Caribbean or the Indian sub-continent. It still happens, though less overtly.

1) Why would I complain about the authors of your link! I would not have read it but for you.
I certainly know that for Indian people, a visitor visa is necessary. In fact when in UK we have less visitors nowadays because a Schengen Visa is easier to get. Even a USA is easier.
(The sponsor form when they do come is a nuisance but travel agents in India have a standard form which they send to sign, can now do it on-line.)

2) The 'whites' remark was in your link about freedom to settle in UK. Obviously I know it to be untrue; OH came by ship in 1960---the Strathmore, to take exams. The passengers all had Indian passports. They docked at Lisbon and were taken around there by bus sight-seeing---were not allowed to get out of the bus because of the difficulty with Portugal over Goa State. Then on to the UK, stopping at various ports including south of France! (Better than air travel!!:lol:)


Shard Oct 10th 2019 6:57 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746746)
2) The 'whites' remark was in your link about freedom to settle in UK. Obviously I know it to be untrue; OH came by ship in 1960---the Strathmore, to take exams. The passengers all had Indian passports. They docked at Lisbon and were taken around there by bus sight-seeing---were not allowed to get out of the bus because of the difficulty with Portugal over Goa State. Then on to the UK, stopping at various ports including south of France! (Better than air travel!!:lol:)

Luckily he wasn't 3 years younger. It does sound like a fantastic voyage. :thumbup:

Red Eric Oct 10th 2019 7:04 pm

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12746746)
2) The 'whites' remark was in your link about freedom to settle in UK. Obviously I know it to be untrue; OH came by ship in 1960---the Strathmore, to take exams. The passengers all had Indian passports. They docked at Lisbon and were taken around there by bus sight-seeing---were not allowed to get out of the bus because of the difficulty with Portugal over Goa State. Then on to the UK, stopping at various ports including south of France! (Better than air travel!!:lol:)

I think you may have misunderstood what was said if it's this you're commenting on :

At the point of setting out the BNA in 1948, then, British citizenship, together with the right to live and work in Britain, was afforded to in excess of 850 million people (albeit within the white dominion whites-only immigration policies excluded fellow British subjects).
… which is saying that the UK had an open to all immigration policy not followed in (all?) the Dominions, which excluded non-whites when it came to immigration to their territories.

Bipat Oct 11th 2019 9:06 am

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12746748)
Luckily he wasn't 3 years younger. It does sound like a fantastic voyage. :thumbup:

Being younger would not have made any difference in the 60s, 70, 80s as UK had need of particular skills and qualifications, entry was no problem for those (He had planned to go straight back after exam but was offered jobs, in Yorkshire first of all and enjoyed it there!! )

Voyage was great apparently and weather good.(There was a TV programme in UK about those that came in the 1950s on the liner Batory).


Bipat Oct 11th 2019 9:09 am

Re: Commonwealth v EU
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12746752)
I think you may have misunderstood what was said if it's this you're commenting on :

… which is saying that the UK had an open to all immigration policy not followed in (all?) the Dominions, which excluded non-whites when it came to immigration to their territories.

Yes, thankyou, read it quickly --didn't really know what it meant--just knew that it didn't apply to UK!!!


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