Would you say it to their face?
 

I’ve been giving some thought to this perpetual ‘you don’t live here how do you know’, ‘you barely spend any time away from British contact how could you know’, debate.
Being both a former journalist and a Libran (totally irrelevant on both counts, some would say) I’ve concluded each side of the argument is flawed and it’s about time we all recognised there’s right on both sides.
If you’ve lived somewhere – anywhere - you obviously have, and are entitled to have, a view. An opinion. Some knowledge. It almost doesn’t matter how long you were there, because even in a few weeks, to play devil’s advocate, it would be possible to attempt many of the bureaucratic hurdles there are to overcome in a new country (here we're obviously talking Spain). Even if living in another continent, therefore, you could potentially help someone considering a move to Spain but who’s never set foot outside the UK.
Someone living the ‘black’ life in Spain, however, may never choose to go down that road of full documentation, so they could have lived here decades and still possibly have magically avoided NIE, empadronamiento, healthcare, driving licence, etc. Depending on where either of those people lived, they could also get by with little Spanish. Possibly even no Spanish, if they always sought out translators/helpers/British shops or shops where the staff are encouraged to speak English to their British customers.
Another person might for whatever reason move to Spain already fluent in the language (let’s say family connections) but once settled rarely ‘integrate’ with the locals in the place they’ve moved to (whatever that means – surely it’s different for every individual and dependent on their character and interests?) . So apart from dealing with the aforementioned bureaucratic hurdles – getting all the bits of paper stamped in triplicate and so on - they may spend little or no time mingling with the populace. They may prefer contact with their own ‘circle’, whether family, student friends, well heeled, educated, less so, English speaking, Dutch, Spanish, Catalan, whatever. And why ever not? Surely moving house doesn’t carry with it the requirement that you immediately immerse yourself headfirst into the local goings-on? If you move from Somerset to Suffolk or Newlyn to Newcastle, does anyone complain if you don’t rapidly become fluent in the local dialect? Or instantly take a leading role in the Rugby Club, Lions, or WI, PTA or whatever? Sure you (and and your family) might get more out of your time in your new location if you make contacts/acquaintances, and one way of speeding that process is to ‘join’ clubs, associations, etc. But is it right to judge someone for not being that kind of person?
You could be living in the village you were born in and not know your next door neighbour because that's how you are. You could be an incomer last week and already mucking in. We're all different and all know different amounts about different things.
What we can all express views on is degree. Likelihood. Probability. Our own experience will give us a benchmark from which we can do that. ‘If you don’t learn a few words, and preferably a lot more, of the native language you may struggle’. ‘If you don’t want problems with your car, house, health cover, perhaps you ought to learn the rules & regs’. Etc etc. Inevitably this means a fair amount of the advice and comments might be a bit general, but providing anything more specific is clearly expressed as ‘well this is what happened to me and I know it doesn’t always work like this…..’ who could possibly criticise?
I suppose there will be those who post links, who might not express their own views and hope they’re giving useful information. And some that definitely are. That’s different. There will be those who say people have agendas (indeed from time to time there are, but they’re usually weeded out by the mods). Call me naïve, though, but I like to believe most folk on fora like BE are here for the general good, to give or receive a bit of helpful advice, or for a chat. Not much more complicated than that.
Within BE, though, ultimately it’s down to how we communicate. I know as well as the next person (maybe more so, my middle name being Procrastination) that sometimes replying to a post on BE is done in undue haste. If we make a botch of a reply and get a bit of friendly banter as a result, that’s one thing. If we weigh in with all guns blazing criticising someone for their plans, saying out and out they need sectioning, or reply to a dodgy post without giving a bit of thought to the consequences of our choice of language….. well….. let’s say it does none of us: BE, the Mods, the concierges, everyday posters, and certainly not newbies, any good whatsoever.
At risk of repeating myself, I’d finish with this thought. Imagine your last few posts as if you’d said them face to face, to the ‘group of people’ on the thread, in a bar or restaurant somewhere. Could you hand on heart say you hadn’t been a bit rude, curt, insensitive? Would you feel you’d been polite, thoughtful, fair? What do you think others would say? For me the ‘would you say it to their face’ question is the test. There's no crime getting it wrong sometimes but just as you (hopefully) would if you were in that bar/party/wherever, explain your misunderstanding, or how you disagree..... but politely. Take stock, make amends and get on with it. Realistically, we’re not all going to get it right all of the time but there’s a good case for saying we should all try just that little bit harder!
*sits back :fingerscrossed:*

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

I think its called civility. something sadding lacking on occasions on this forum.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Congratulations on an intelligent post. As a 'newbie' I confess to feeling a little intimated by people on here. For example HBG has just referred to me in a post as a troublemaker. If I could see his face I could easily determine if this remark was in jest or tongue in cheek or whatever. Because I can't see his face I can't decide. I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for the sake of harmony. As a publican I am well used to banter but there is a line to be drawn, which is often crossed on here.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Unfortunately there is more than one line on here and until that is rectified nothing will change.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Quite true.


I fully agree with the sentiments of your last para. Fiona.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Perhaps if people were "face to face" "1 : 1" or whatever there wouldnt be the very abbreviated, open to confusion postings that generally start off the problems.
in the same way as for reasons many and varied their ident isnt complete, you may be having a conversation with a male and weeks later find he was a she, and perhaps one or two of your comments would not have been said or not been said in that way.

I am sure most here endeavour to be helpful and thoughtful, but sometimes someone will deliberately stir it and the French have a word for that - EXOCET !

Webcam discussions might help. This would solve the gender problem and also the look on someone's face, but the impression I have of some people is they would be exceedingly good at playing poker.
Would this lead us into an open forum where a webcast is online for say 2-3hrs a day, and anyone wanting advice or discussion just drop by. But what happens when it runs OT.?

So Fiona, how do you really see the way forward?

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Webcam, god forbid, that would mean i would have to get dressed before logging on ;);)

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

I think some take forums too seriously. They are La-La land, everyones claiming to be the perfect person, 20 yr olds can be pensioners and vice-versa.;):rofl: Inverted snobbery rules:p

Most of the time I forget who has said what unless they are constantly making sarky comments and veiled put downs. Even the ones who I hardly ever agree with sometimes make some good points. If I were face to face with someone and they kept making digs about me I would tackle them in real life too. Sometimes tongue in cheek stuff does get misintepreted.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

If we had a webcam, it would probably just lead to lots more personal comments about people's appearance and/or the decor of their living room (or wherever they may be posting from, it doesn't bear thinking about!):)

IMO it comes down to whether you want a forum that is strictly for information purposes, which would certainly be useful but probably more than a bit dull. If you have one which allows debate of any kind, then people are bound to disagree with each other because naturally everyone has their own opinion which they are convinced is right, and if other people challenge it they often use the 'attack is the best form of defence' strategy.

Maybe we should all just stop and think - do I know this person? Would I want to know them? Would I care about their opinion of me or my opinions if I did? If the answer is no, why should anything anyone writes about any of us matter in the slightest? People come out with the rudest, most hurtful and aggressive things on internet forums precisely BECAUSE they wouldn't say it to your face.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

I'm not sure i see any need for change of format, more change of behaviour. It's true that not seeing facial expressions, body language, etc., sometimes makes a world of difference. Not everyone uses smileys to emphasise they're being ironic/sarcastic, which makes for confusion. ... dunno, just reflecting, maybe if there were more templates or something, along the lines of 'did you really mean that or did you say it tongue in cheek' available at just one click, for those who aren't speedy touch typists? Not sure that's a good idea, or practical, just thinking.....

You see, I don't know if these two bits were said with a sense of irony or not, which kind of illustrates the need for caution. It would be very easy for someone to get up in arms and say to J2 'case proven m'lud' or 'pot kettle black' or whatever but how would that help when I can't be sure of the tone it was 'said' in because it was a short post? Oh, and no I don't think I would ever post either of those, but I thought (for illustrative purposes only) I should try to show how easily these things can turn... J2 might well have replied, others would have weighed in....................................
As to tackling someone in real life if they've been having digs in real life - not unreasonable - that's a whole different scenario, with facial expression, body language, the opportunity to clear up meaning, interpretation, explanation, clarifying phrases, etc., even one or both offering an apology, there and then within moments. That's never going to happen as comprehensively in pixel-land.

I think the reason this last bit matters is because the tone of a forum does make a difference. How many threads have you seen started only for the (new) OP to disappear within hours licking their wounds, sometimes never to be seen again? Oh, and as an aside, how would you know if you would want to know someone? How can you possibly judge? Even those with a quick riposte to everything may be totally different in 'real life'. As J2 said, even those we hardly ever seem to agree with have good points to make. Face to face that might be even more obvious. But if we're forever snapping back, how are we going to get the best for ourselves or the forum?

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

In all of this must be remembered that whilst a thread is running with only 5/6/7 active participants sparking off each other like a knife in a microwave, there may be 3or400 people out there watching, people who comeup on the front pages as Guests. At this moment Spain has 16 Members and 55 Guests showing as being online here.

from time to time we all can get a bit liverish, we have our reasons, but we should stop and think before blasting someone's head off because there are alot of people out there who we don't yet know who will be very wary of ever venturing in here.

It just would help if some of the OP's would give a bit more information, instead of people having to wring it from them bit by bit. Maintaining one's personal security is fine but ....

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Hmm, good last para Fiona :thumbup: Wouldn't like to see a plastic forum though. I used to be on a Florida forum and many hugs and kisses at the end of posts. They used it like Facebook, completey false!

Jacky:wub:xx :rofl:

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Absolutely.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

Thinking about the title to the thread, and after thinking about my posts, my answer would be yes, I would say it to their face.

Even my little bits of attempted humour, MARIDA and NEXT, even though they either fell flat or came back to bite me on the arse.

My posts about most expats not really knowing how the" poorer" Spanish people liveand the insecurity they face, would still be said in the same way face to face.

We can all read the papers, watch the TV and see the hardship faced by others in any part of the world as well as ´Spain and UK, but that does not give us any real insight as to the "real"situation.

We cannot feel the pain of a hungry belly, or smell the stench of the sewers for expample, in the same way that an expat (i include myself too) who choose to live in Spain from what is a reletively comfortable postition (mostly)
can feel the same despair as the locals who dont see a future for themselves,

So having said that on the screen,I would say it face to face.

Re: Would you say it to their face?
 

perhaps an occaisional acerbic comment can actually make it real ?
Facebook, Twitter, etc I see as being false and dangerous, where it is claimed people have committed suicide because of the comments of some so called friends
I presume there havent been any suicides from here ?? :eek: