stuboy

Do we think we should pay more for the NHS and if so how do we raise the money.

It seems to me there are only two options either raise taxation or start paying at point of use.


Personally I wouldn't mind paying a couple of quid each time to see a doctor nor would I object to paying a tenner a night for a hospital (max 5 nights)bed.

Electoral suicide I know but something's got to give.

stevesainty

It seems to me that no matter how much money is thrown at the NHS, it gets gobbled up without any improvement in service delivery.

I believe that is is far too heavy at the administration level.

I believe that the contracted out services of catering, cleaning etc. do not represent value for money.

There is far too much money spent on litigation, with every man and his dog wanting to sue.

More supervision of visitors is required with compulsory hand washing to prevent endemic infections.

GP surgeries need sorting out so that you can get to see a doctor when you need to rather than trying to guess when you are going to be ill, to program an appointment in several days hence.

Until a solution to these issues are found then we have no hope of improving patient care no matter how much more money is found.

Our experience of health care in Spain is exemplary and UK could take lessons.

jonboy

Pay more if you like but the NHS is stuffed. Why? Because both New Labour and the Conservatives are in the business of destroying it so that they can carve it up between themselves and award the lucrative contracts to one another when it finally becomes completely unsaveable due to their deliberate acts of destruction.

In the short term the taxpayer/voter will receive a boost financially and in the longer term it is yet more of the "family silver" sold down the river.
Remember the hospitals built with private money and now costing us a fortune. Remember the computerisation? another fortune. Remember when they stuffed the GPs mouths with money and then allowed/encouraged them to outsource the home visits to locums, just about the time when their own hours of work were cut? How about all the super new managers, charged with managing/massaging the figures? Yes it is untenable with the input of our current political parties.
Pay as much as you like and they will piss it up the wall. Because they want their cut.
R.I.P. The Health Service

amideislas

All gigantic organisations suffer from a lot of things that make them inefficient. But when it's government-run, it adds another layer of inefficiency through the necessary bureaucracy that the public always demands of its government.

Government-run programs are not allowed to make any mistakes (and if they do, the media and consequently, the public goes into conniption fits and ultimately, people lose their jobs), so virtually every insignificant little decision, every move, every employee's actions, and everything anyone ever says is under scrutiny - and that costs a lot of extra money to administrate.

On top of that, the public naturally doesn't want to pay for it, and when inefficiencies are revealed, there's even more pressure to reduce budgets.

Lastly, what most people forget is that providing healthcare for 64 million citizens is astronomically expensive in the first place. Besides, when it's "free", people consume it like water, which adds another level of (arguably unnecessary) expense and burden. We're talking big, big numbers, of a magnitude that astronomers routinely speak of.

Having said all that, and considering that 64 million people enjoy perceptibly "free" healthcare, despite the astronomical, inconceivable-for-most-people costs of providing it, the NHS is probably the single most efficient social healthcare system on the planet. It is still the standard by which all others are compared.

The NHS certainly ain't perfect, and as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for, but in this case, we've actually been getting quite a bit more than we pay for - for a long time now.

So, it's no surprise that the NHS has been living beyond its means for quite some time. It's just the nature of the animal, and again, nobody wants to pay for it anyway, but naturally, we're perfectly happy to complain about it.

So, whatever peeves you about the NHS, it's probably worth keeping that in mind.

cricketman

I know I shouldn'y bite but I couldn't let this pass by!

The most unefficient health system in the world in the US health system. It is entirely private. Private enterprise is inefficient when there is not a free market and level playing field

There are plenty of public national health services that are more efficient that the UK NHS. Spain's, France's. Probably the most efficient of all is Cuba's

Once again, U.S. has most expensive, least effective health care system in survey - The Washington Post

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-...ld-2012-6?op=1

Bipat

Most of what you say is very true. Government interference has a lot to answer for.

Just for accuracy though, yes GPs remuneration was very much increased, as has happened before, Then it takes years before another increase!!

It was 'out of hours' work that was outsourced, not "home visits" as such. The situation had become untenable with GPs working day and night with night visits ever increasing.

"Hours of work cut"-- they have never had 'hours of work", they are responsible for their patients 24hrs X 7, unless they enter into a contract to outsource 'out of hours work', nights, weekends etc.

The situation is getting worse because there is a shortage of GPs and A& E doctors, fewer wanting (applying) to do these jobs.

Everyone has a different answer to improve the situation, but it is reaching crisis point in certain areas of work.

amideislas

(dismayed expression)

Erm, what has that have to do with my post? I said nothing about the US, nor compared it's healthcare system, and in fact said the NHS is about as good as it gets on this planet. And just about the cheapest too (for most average beneficiaries) despite how expensive healthcare is to provide, and especially considering how much more we consume it (often irresponsibly) - because it's "free".

What are you defending, exactly? Are you stuck on that anti-american narrative again?

sigh. Get a life.

jonboy

Thanks to amideislas and Bipat, my point being that there is no political will to preserve the NHS as a national institution as there is greater profit to be made, for a few people, by selling it off (outsourcing).

stuboy

I fail completely to see your logic.

The plain fact is that we cannot afford the health service as we expect it.

A noble idea conceptually but who would have forecast the rapid population growth and the astonishing advances in medicine.

We all know people are living longer thanks to new treatments and drugs. All of these cost a great deal of money.

Because the system is free it's abused. Who doesn't know half a dozen people that go to the doctors every time they think they're going to fart.

stuboy

I can't remember which commentator/author said that the NHS truly demonstrates that 'I am my brothers keeper'

Grayling

My experience of healthcare (including hospital admission) in Spain was awful.....and they could learn a few lessons from the NHS.

......and i am a nurse so have some idea about how people should be treated

IamStu

The NHS is just brilliant! The medical and auxiliary staff do a fantastic job under difficult circumstances! A job I for one, certainly wouldn´t care for. I have the scars to prove it!
However, the management seem able to piss up any number of millions on over paid chiefs not able to organise a piss up in a brewery.
Top heavy in suits like many organisations that seem to sit around tables patting each other on the backs for a job badly done.
Bring back the Ward Matron, give responsibility back to the nurses and mid wives, and let the Dr´s do what they´re good at!
Wards would be cleaner, more efficient and more proffesional!
Having worked in a profession for over 20 years and witnessed the havoc caused by the employment of these "business managers/Directors" that cleary know and understand f### all about the profession they´re managing, I can only sympathise for the ground staff in the NHS.
Back to the OP´s original question, yes I would pay per visit but it shouldn´t be necessary if left to the professionals!

amideislas

We lived in Germany for a number of years - and there is no such thing as "free" healthcare there.

On top of the high income and other taxes (higher than the UK, IIRC), you still have to pay out of pocket for health insurance (obligatory, but the state pays if you're skint). What you pay depends on your income.

We paid over €600 per month for a family of four - out of pocket (and we weren't "rich"). Yes, in addition to the ridiculously high income, social security and other taxes. Plus, we had to pay (IIRC) 2% of GP visits and 10% of prescriptions - something most Brits would find unthinkable. But that's the way it is in most of the rest of the world - if not worse.

So, the NHS seems rather a good deal by comparison. It's "free" after all.

Obviously, there is no "free" healthcare system anywhere. In our case, the costs are paid for right out of our paychecks before we even see it (so it's "free" innit?).

The bigger the paycheck, the bigger the take. So, the lucky ones making 1Mil make up for what, say, 10 people making 50k and consuming double what they pay for, and/or say, 50 people living on 10k and paying nothing? That's fair, right?

Sure takes the pressure off us punters. Seems to me that more millionaires is a good thing. The more the merrier.

I wonder what would happen to our sacred NHS if nobody had an annual income of over say, 100K (as some political parties seem to aspire to). I reckon we'd have to start paying some percentage "out of pocket" for everything - even if you're skint.

jonboy

It is too hot politically to suggest paying a fee to see a GP and a per night hotel charge for hospital admissions. The only other option, other than greater taxation, is to show that the NHS is failing badly and claim that private enterprise will be its saviour.

IamStu

This thread got me thinking last night. I remembered when I was working in ROI that I would pay €50 for a GP visit. Money well spent as the Dr would spend the required time to investigate the problem and explain whatever was necessary. Typically an appointment would range somewhere from 10 to 20 minutes and I would leave feeling that was a well spent €50!
In contrast to this, I remember discussing with with a GP in the UK, how astonished I was at the number of my patients that were being prescribed anti-depressant medication. The GP went on to say as Doctors, they would love to be able to take the necessary time to "get to know" the patient and try to understand the best course of action for each individual on an individual basis. Also, that that simple task was made impossible by having to run clinics at 5minute schedules! A pressure applied as the service is offered free of charge and people will turn up at appointments when they simply need to take a paracetemol or book an appointment for feeling groggy and then simply fail to attend!
Unfortunately, should it be the case whereby a fee is applied, the press will go to town because Mr X died of X,Y or Z because he didn´t have the fifty quid to go to his Dr, so until we can all scrape our fifty quid together (after beer and cigarette expenses), we all suffer!