Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

As opposed to the dog being kicked in the balls by the tories?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Cameron, who has a level of wealth that few can imagine? How the hell is he going to be sympathetic to the likes of us?

I understood the definition of champagne socialist was one who wanted those at the bottom to have a good time too, rather than it being restricted to the rich.

As opposed to the more trad socialist who simply wants to drag the rich down to the bottom with everyone else.

Of course, for a laugh, could you define the term socialist for us all?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Oh yeah, Gordon Brown, prince of eviltude.

Even with GB dragging Labour down, they still performed so well, or the tories so badly, that the tories couldn't get in on their own merit.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

AFAIK, Miliband has more than the likes of us too.

IMO a champagne socialist is one who has wealth and privilege and really has no connection with (nor cares particularly about ) those at the bottom of the pile. They bleat on about 'equality' and 'rights' for minorities whilst igoring those hard-working majority who make up the traditional working class.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...agne-socialist

I'm not over-enamoured with Cameron, but the alternative, imho, is so, so much worse that I will always vote Tory while that man is at Labour's helm.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

The definition you posted was

"a rich person who says he or she supports a fair society in which everyone has equal rights and the rich help the poor, but who may not behave in this way"

Or who equally may behave in that way. So, not a brilliant definition.

OK, so now can you define socialist for me? I kinda have a problem there, as it needs to encompass Nazi, communist, christian and democrat, so I wish you luck.

I'm puzzled. You make your choice of who you vote for on a basis of who the leader is? Surely you jest? Why not just admit you are a tory?

I agree millipede is a stupid, if not suicidal choice, but I would, if I voted be voting Labour, not millipede.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

A bit like donkeys I suppose, some mindlessly and obediently tread the same well worn path till the end of their days with little or no reward while others live in the lap of luxury no expense spared in a donkey retirement home.

A bit offensive to donkeys maybe, as to be fair they are much better at arithmatic.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Because I am not a Tory. I am a floating voter.

I was always a Labour voter until the Michael Foot years when I found I could no longer in all conscience vote for them. Now I will vote for the party who seems to me best at the time. I have voted all political colours except far left or right.

If I am voting for a Government for my country, then of course I care who the leader is....they will become the Prime Minister if their party wins! If I voted Labour I would be voting for Miliband to become Prime Minister.:eek:

I may (and usually do) vote differently in a local election to a Parlaimentary one.


And I was brought up in a family of far-left idealogists like Miliband (except not as rich), I do know what they are like.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Ah, a floater. Much prized in certain quarters I understand.

So, what's a socialist defined as these days?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Presumably a follower of socialism.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

At least we can show it isn't just the men who google and wiki, eh?

I was looking for a definition that would cover it given that we have socialists of every stripe.

Here's a couple

National socialists aka Nazi
International socialists aka communists
Christian socialists
Democratic socialists
and of course, Champagne socialists

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Ignoring the possible double-entendre, I will say that it is interesting at election time when the parties are canvassing.:) Especially as my home Constituency has just gone from a marginal Labour to a marginal Conservative. They all bend over backwards to secure my vote!:rofl:

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

As I say, you are much prized (there actually was no double entendre meant) by politicians, right up to the moment that the polls close, and then you go back to being as worthless as the rest of us.

I see you still vote. I gave up on the day I realised that it did no good. I was watching a labour and a tory debating, and I realised that while A was saying yes, and B was saying no, this was because A was in power, and had B been in power then B would have been saying Yes and A no.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Name me one single right that you possess that you don't owe to those donkeys.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Y'know Dick, I'm sure the donkey jibe got a good laugh.

The fact is that every movement has those who betray the basic idea, either for personal gain or personal power. However, that doesn't tarnish the good idea at the heart of it.

The idea of socialism to me, is the movement of society towards a fairer, more just society. Where you can have both the concept that one who invests his money, or his time, or whatever should benefit from that, but at the same time, those who have nothing, or who work at the bottom of the pile should also be treated fairly and justly.

Now by that I do not mean that we go by the rule of the right, whereby to be poor is a crime, and the penalty is to be exploited ruthlessly.

Every single right that you possess has been dragged out of the right (by that I mean the unholy trinity of State, Crown and church) by the people you call donkeys. Were it not for them, you would be an ignorant peon, chained to the land, and bound by law to serve your betters, to harvest the squire's land before you were allowed to touch yours.

What was it you would be expected to say?

"God bless the Squire and his relations, and keep us in our proper stations."

As always, one law for the poor, and none for the rich to worry about.

Personally, I think you owe the 'Donkeys' a sincere apology.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

presumably there is\was a quid pro quo.

how can you have a "democratic election" when the leaders of the unions (how many - 12 or so?) can use a block vote of millions to get the one they want.
that isn't the democracy these over paid, over dressed union leaders insist is the right of the working (wo)man. Being driven in chauffered cars, living in large houses owned by the union, living off expenses. Obviously they have learnt a lot from the bosses who have been grinding down the working (wo)man into the ground for all those centuries.

Maggie proved they werent really wanted and were bloodsuckers out for their own glorification. Their insistance on closing down Leyland is typical. When their membership fell due to layoffs they only wanted to keep those who had jobs and could pay their dues every week\month. They missed the fact that all those ex-union members never came back when they got a new job. They missed a trick in not keeping the memberships open until times got better.

nowadays the only area where the unions have some muscle is within the public sector.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Maggie, like most of her right wing friends, wasn't interested in reforming the unions, she wanted them destroyed.

The idea of a union is to protect the working man and give him real muscle to balance the power of the bosses.

Can't have that, it leads to all sorts of nasty things like workers having the right to a decent wage, or the right to a safe working environment. I remember tales from my family during the depression where you were effectively fighting for a job with sh'it money, you wouldn't dare complain at the conditions, or ask for a safe environment.

Yeah, who wants a union? Nasty things, unless of course you have real understanding of what it means to be at the bottom of the heap.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

bil, pse stop preaching to the converted, I was brought up living and breathing the unions.
it was only many years later when the idiots from the union came out to the De Haviland plant for a meeting "under the tree" my father started to realise that working to rule or withdrawing labour was the one thing the bosses wanted as they didnt have any work for a large workforce. Much better to let them get their 2/- from the union than their pockets. Dad said the unions were never there when there was plenty of work and a waste of space.
And that is a man who I thought would be buried with UNION moulded into him like a piece of Blackpool rock.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

An idea yes, but unfortunately as with Socialism a well worn out idea thats long outlived it's usefulness and is simply used as a means to an end for those who wish to take advantage of the fact that there are those fool enough to keep following them, simply because its virtually ingrained into their brain from birth to do so.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

As I say, just because the concept of a union is right and proper, it doesn't make every union member a saint. You and I both know full well that turds as well as cream rise to the top, and some of the union leaders have been bigger bastards and more exploitative of the workers than the bosses.

Trouble is, that is used as a stick by the right to beat the unions wih in the hope of destroying them entirely. They have no intention or desire to see reform, because a reformed and just union system would force them to treat their workers justly.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Why Dick, I had absolutely no idea that all the labour problems had been solved in a just and fair way! Why haven't I hear the bells chiming out to ring in the good news?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Well, here in Spain, the PSOE isn't socialist - it's opportunist. Socialism here is with Izquierda Unida, which has the virtue - at least - of being thought of as honest.
The PP, you get what you expect (short of the odd minister with ideas), but the PSOE is always fiddling, interfering and screwing the society is purports to represent. In all senses. Which is why Seville remains stalwartly PSOE, it's got it too good.
In Spain, there are two strands to the PSOE: the Champagne Socialists who have made it good, by Gum (they usually drive Beemers), and the rest who want a taste.
During the Civil War, Pepe la Sopa attended a meeting in our local theatre. When it was his turn to speak, he climbed onto the stage and said 'Brothers, everything belongs to us now, there are no more owners'. Somebody from the back shouted: 'and what about your farm, Pepe?'
'I'll shoot the first bastard who comes on my property', answered Pepe.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

I will always vote. I was brought up that way. I consider it my duty. And, if it does not sound too heavy, people have died for the right for me to do so.

I vote in Spain (locals) and in the UK (Parliamentary and European, registered as non-resident voter), but of course will be UK resident again soon, so will not be able to vote in Spain.

I agree though, it is often a challenge to decide which is the best of a bad bunch. I wish there was a 'none of the above' box I could tick!

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

They get in by big promises, but when I looked at the electoral process of Unite where I paid some subs for a while, it seemed to me to be blatantly one horse race, even down to the regional elections. In one instance there was a dirty tricks campaign to ensure on individual got in.
No matter how often they start with high ideals they soon drop down to the level of every other "leader".

I would assume the unions are not shouting too loudly about their success on behalf of the tube drivers in London - a £52k salary. A slap in the face with a wet fish for the majority of workers on NMW.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

well when you go into that little booth you could always add it in on the form.
your vote would be invalidated, counting as "spoiled", but would at least give you some satisfaction.
:)

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Yes I agree, but can't bring myself to not have my vote count, so I would like an 'official' box.:)

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Lenox, I think you are off topic;):rofl: I came out a PP on the questions. I feel the gap will narrow during the last few days before the election and it will be close, in Andalucía anyway. What do you think?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

My dad knew a little ditty sung to the tune of The Red Flag:

'The Working Class can kiss my A£$e, I've got the boss's job at last'.

Scargill used the Unions for his own ends just as much as Thatcher did.

Although I do agree with Bil in that just because certain members of an organisation is corrupt, doen't mean that the concept or philosophy of the thing is wrong. ( I hope he will remember to apply that to Christianity instead of always going on about peadophile priests).

Trades Union were, and are, a necessary thing to allow the working wo/man to fight back. I agree that many were far too militant in the past and a few are still, but that does not negate the good that they have done and are still doing for working people.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

(For Jackytoo) I've lived in Andalucía for a long time. Since before the Autonomous region was invented. The PSOE returned to power in the eighties due to the ideas and energy of Felipe Gonzalez, Alfonso Guerra and several other comrades from Seville. Heady times. Then Seville became a huge power block and, with the introduction of the autonomies and the Junta de Andalucía, together with the EXPO in 1992, Seville became a by-word for corruption.
It's not changed since then. There are too many people tied to the status quo. However, there are cracks in the wall.
Griñán inherited his job as President (rather like Gordon Brown), and, like Brown, knows that he will lose it in an e-lect-ion. As a result, rather than having an autonomous election on Nov 20 (Andalucía always has its elections together with national elections), he is holding on until next March where, he hopes, either we will all be bored, unemployed or living in Germany.
Seriously though, the PP contender in Andalucía, like Rajoy in Madrid, has lost so many elections that he is 'damaged goods'.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Oh yeah, for the benefit of Dick, where did your right to vote come from, the reactionary conservative side or the progressive people who might well have been what you could call socialist, if we define that as wanting a move towards a fairer society?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

You are quite right, and I agree. There should be a box that you can tick, in addition, or instead of, your vote, and this would have to be counted and announced.

Perhaps it could be titled "I hate you all'?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

I promise you that were I in a Union, and there was institutionalised paedophilia throughout it, you would hear me scream loud and long. Very loud and very, very long.

If the sort of people on here put half the effort into campaigning against the corruption in the church that they do into trying to tear down the unions, then the world could be a much better place.

You don't hear Dick or anyone like him saying that the unions shouldn't be criticised because they do soem good, eh?

He can't even answer the question about where does he think all his rights come from.

Can you or anyone else name a single right we have as the common people that was freely given by the right? That wasn't paid for in blood or hard labour to get?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

My mum in her youth spent many a long hour knocking on doors trying to persuade people (especially women) to join Unions and/or vote Communist. This was in the 1940s, before I was born. Both these things were a strong and vibrant voice for working people at the time.

My dad believed in closed shop Unions, I never have, even when I was votong Labour. We had many a disagreement about it.

I can see why closed shops were necessary at one time, but would not want them now.

When I first worked for Local Government I spent ages not in the Union at all as NALGO were too militant for me. In the end I hivered and hovered and finally signed up for NUPE.....just before it amalgamated with NALGO and became the even more left-wing and militant UNISON. :thumbdown: I did opt out of the political donation though.

UNISON (at least in my Council) cared not for the office workers, it worked mainly for the cleaners and other blue-collar workers.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

There are many faults in the union system.

I remember a lovely story about Tony Booth, Bliar's father in law.

A journo from some rag was interviewing him, trying to wind him up by asking him about the misuse of power by the unions. Booth looked at him hard and said "You are right. For a few years the Unions had too much power which they used unwisely and improperly. Let's just compare that with all the hundreds and hundreds of years that those at the top have ruthlessly exploited the working man, and see which weighs heaviest in the scales."

Me, I'll second that. What's more, people at the top are still doing it, paying impoverished workers below the minimum wage, making them pay for their own safety and protective gear out of their own wages (completely illegal, and in some areas common practice).

We need unions.

It's alright for people like Dick who feel they have all the rights they need, to turn around and shout 'I'm OK, you can pull the ladder up now!'

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Maybe you didn't notice bil, but we have moved into the 21st century and a totally different ball game. The Unions did a useful job in their day, however over the last half century they have cost working ppl.very dear in lost jobs closed factories and businesses moving abroad to avoid the aggravation.

At the present time they are making there presence felt in situations where it is not really required, whilst at the same time remaining powerless to help those that really need it.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

They have also done a lot of good, even in those times.

The current time doesn't call for no unions, it calls for changed unions to match the times.

Tell me, without a union, who will fight for proper conditions and pay for those at the bottom of the heap?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

At present it seems no one, least of all the unions are capable of helping those at the bottom of the heap.

So instead in a sad attempt to justify their existance they switch their muscle to situations where it isn't really required and cause unnecessary aggravation, doing no one apart from their own sweet selves any good at all in the long term.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

So what's the alternative?

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

On the whole I agree with you (Is that a first??:rofl:)

I haver decided that I am going to vote for whoever can make life better for my son and his partner. They are young, they have their life to lead and their working life still to do. I am retired and my pensions are not going to disappear. I'll do what I can for them. He is a shop worker and she is a cleaner, both on slightly more than minimum wage.

At the moment it appears that getting the country out of this financial hole is the priority, and will benefit my son anfd his girlfriend more in the long run. I feel that Cameron's Tories can do that better than Miliband's Labour. Ergo, I will vote for them until I feel someone else can do a better job.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

I can't argue with your logic. I might even consider doing the same, tho it would stick in my craw to do so.

However, in all honesty, as someone on here once said to me. The heads of government, in times like these are as much in control of the situation as you would be in a row boat in a hurricane.

I truly think that a sock puppet wouldn't be much worse, especially if they used a clean sock.

Re: When PP win the election, what will change?
 

Do you really think that factories have been closed and businesses moved abroad because of British trade unions? I think it's far more likely that these things happened as part of the globalisation trend - companies getting more or less slave labour in less developed countries, going wherever they can maximise their profits without having to worry about such niceties as safety, environmental impact, and all the rest of it.

Perhaps you think that British workers should have accepted the same working conditions as those in China, India and the other fast growing economies? Would you have been willing to do so yourself?

There seems to be something of a disconnect in some people's thinking on this issue. On the one hand, they bemoan the way that workers in the private sector have been treated, their jobs, wages and pensions decimated. On the other hand, they complain that workers in the private sector (in their own words, the area where trade union organisation remains strongest) have been protected. Don't they see any connection here?

The biggest enemy of the working class is apathy. Trade unions per se cannot achieve everything on behalf of their members - some situations demand that the members themselves are willing to take action, and if necessary lose money, in order to protect what they value in the long term. As long as they remain slumped in front of Strictly Come Dancing, X Factor and Big Brother and swallowing the bilge about evil trade unions shoved at them by the tabloids, they will carry on getting shafted. "Bread and circuses", "Opium for the masses" - plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose".