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Toros - tide turning?
On holiday in Madrid & Galicia over Xmas I noticed newspaper articles and talk in the media about about Catalunya taking an anti-bullfighting stance after recent debate, is this just a 'we are not Spain' position yet again or are they genuinely concerned about animal cruelty issues?
In your part of Spain what opinions have you heard? When I was a student in Pamplona back in the 80s I wouldn't say I liked it but did get to understand the attraction of bullfighting. For what it's worth my view now is that it's an appalling 'spectacle', I won't call it 'form of art' or even 'sport' although you can read about it in Marca and when I visted the footie part of their website last weekend a video of the Jose Tomas goring popped up at me! What's the latest on his condition? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...nia-jose-tomas |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by expatasia
(Post 8531901)
On holiday in Madrid & Galicia over Xmas I noticed newspaper articles and talk in the media about about Catalunya taking an anti-bullfighting stance after recent debate, is this just a 'we are not Spain' position yet again or are they genuinely concerned about animal cruelty issues?
In your part of Spain what opinions have you heard? When I was a student in Pamplona back in the 80s I wouldn't say I liked it but did get to understand the attraction of bullfighting. For what it's worth my view now is that it's an appalling 'spectacle', I won't call it 'form of art' or even 'sport' although you can read about it in Marca and when I visted the footie part of their website last weekend a video of the Jose Tomas goring popped up at me! What's the latest on his condition? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...nia-jose-tomas Parts of Spain have never been into bullfighting, just depends on the region. In Catalunya it's thought of as a Madrid thing or for the many tens of thousands of migrants that came from the South. Bull fighting isnt as popular as it used to be, you can see that because most of the village bull rings are hardly ever used. However, it still has an important core following in Andalucia and Castilla/Madrid. Let them get on with it I say, it is an artform even though the death of an animal is involved, I've been convinced that the death of the bull is an honourable death rather than a violent one :). If and when they decide not to do it anymore should be up to the people who do it. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
More people go to the carboot sale at Torremolinos than the bullfight. :rofl:
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532506)
Jose Tomas has gotten better, he's not going to die, but they say this kind of injury normally ends their career.
Parts of Spain have never been into bullfighting, just depends on the region. In Catalunya it's thought of as a Madrid thing or for the many tens of thousands of migrants that came from the South. Bull fighting isnt as popular as it used to be, you can see that because most of the village bull rings are hardly ever used. However, it still has an important core following in Andalucia and Castilla/Madrid. Let them get on with it I say, it is an artform even though the death of an animal is involved, I've been convinced that the death of the bull is an honourable death rather than a violent one :). If and when they decide not to do it anymore should be up to the people who do it. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Madridboy
(Post 8532535)
How the hell is it an art form and just exacly what is your idea of a violent death if having several spears stabbed into you, taunted then a sword thrust into you isn't violent???
There is enough intolerance in the world. Let them get on with it, if a particular region votes for a ban on bullfighting then great, if not, then great aswell |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532546)
You're entitled to your view and me on mine. There are so many worse things going on in the world which nobody talks about banning.
There is enough intolerance in the world. Let them get on with it, if a particular region votes for a ban on bullfighting then great, if not, then great aswell There is no heroism in any conflict where the outcome is almost inevitable, unless it is applied to the bull. However, Cricketman has a point. The excuse that there are worse things going on is a spurious one, a bit like saying 'There's folk worse off than you', which basically means 'Screw you I don't care'. Banning it outright would IMO simply popularise it with certain people who would then hold it up as something to be defended if you are a patriot. Not methinks what we need. The best way is to gradually bend public opinion towards the point where it is no longer seen as positive, and then it will slowly die the death. I like the people who run and jump over the bulls. Now that takes guts. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by bil
(Post 8532647)
Well, first off, Madridboy has it bang to rights. I watched a matador who had obviously had enough training to qualify as a lousy butcher, stick the bull half a dozen times with his sword and it just stood there daring him to have another go and show just how useless he was.
There is no heroism in any conflict where the outcome is almost inevitable, unless it is applied to the bull. However, Cricketman has a point. The excuse that there are worse things going on is a spurious one, a bit like saying 'There's folk worse off than you', which basically means 'Screw you I don't care'. Banning it outright would IMO simply popularise it with certain people who would then hold it up as something to be defended if you are a patriot. Not methinks what we need. The best way is to gradually bend public opinion towards the point where it is no longer seen as positive, and then it will slowly die the death. I like the people who run and jump over the bulls. Now that takes guts. Fair enough, but a lot of foreigners miss the point about bullfighting. The matador/torero is not meant to be a hero. Noone sees him as a hero. In fact this isnt even a fight (in Spanish language). Bullfighting is an English word which implies a winner and loser, there is no such thing in the "corridas de toros" i.e. literally bull running! Corridas de toros are about nobility and art in the journey to the death. It can be seen as a dance of death where the toreros/picadores etc help the bull on its way to die a noble and celebrated death. A much more noble and celebrated death than being electrically stunned in a windowless cowshed or growing up in a 50 square cm prison and never seeing natural light in the 45 days of torrid, insipid torturous life. Yet still 90% of us all eat animal meat without worrying about all that. People should grow up a bit! |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by bil
(Post 8532647)
Well, first off, Madridboy has it bang to rights. I watched a matador who had obviously had enough training to qualify as a lousy butcher, stick the bull half a dozen times with his sword and it just stood there daring him to have another go and show just how useless he was.
There is no heroism in any conflict where the outcome is almost inevitable, unless it is applied to the bull. However, Cricketman has a point. The excuse that there are worse things going on is a spurious one, a bit like saying 'There's folk worse off than you', which basically means 'Screw you I don't care'. Banning it outright would IMO simply popularise it with certain people who would then hold it up as something to be defended if you are a patriot. Not methinks what we need. The best way is to gradually bend public opinion towards the point where it is no longer seen as positive, and then it will slowly die the death. I like the people who run and jump over the bulls. Now that takes guts. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by manamama
(Post 8532724)
Yes I agree..it will lose it's popularity over time. Hopefully each new generation will grow to find other more interesting past-times and entertainment.
Not to mention the millions of tons of CO2 they release into the air each year. What would you rather see, 2 hours of a car going round a track or that 10,000 children are given access to clean drinking water? If human beings were good people we wouldn't live in such a cr*p and injust world. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532729)
You could say the same about Formula 1 racing. The amount of money that they spend each year. If they spent that on child poverty, then could save the lives of 1 million children a year.
Not to mention the millions of tons of CO2 they release into the air each year. What would you rather see, 2 hours of a car going round a track or that 10,000 children are given access to clean drinking water? If human beings were good people we wouldn't live in such a cr*p and injust world. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532729)
You could say the same about Formula 1 racing. The amount of money that they spend each year. If they spent that on child poverty, then could save the lives of 1 million children a year.
Not to mention the millions of tons of CO2 they release into the air each year. What would you rather see, 2 hours of a car going round a track or that 10,000 children are given access to clean drinking water? If human beings were good people we wouldn't live in such a cr*p and injust world. Yes shocking....let hope each new generation becomes more caring to others and not focus on money, sport and big business. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532707)
Fair enough, but a lot of foreigners miss the point about bullfighting. The matador/torero is not meant to be a hero. Noone sees him as a hero. In fact this isnt even a fight (in Spanish language). Bullfighting is an English word which implies a winner and loser, there is no such thing in the "corridas de toros" i.e. literally bull running!
Corridas de toros are about nobility and art in the journey to the death. It can be seen as a dance of death where the toreros/picadores etc help the bull on its way to die a noble and celebrated death. A much more noble and celebrated death than being electrically stunned in a windowless cowshed or growing up in a 50 square cm prison and never seeing natural light in the 45 days of torrid, insipid torturous life. Yet still 90% of us all eat animal meat without worrying about all that. People should grow up a bit! |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Rotor
(Post 8532796)
I think your knowledge of cattle and cattle rearing could be written on the back of a postage stamp.Idiot.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532798)
Could say the same about your knowledge of Spain :thumbup:
You could say but it would not be true ,Ive lived here a lot more years than you and have learnt a lot more as well it appears, I dont wear blinker`s either, Like I said ,idiot. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
If anybody is truely interested in joining the anti-bullfighting movement here in Spain, rather than just talking about it, this organisation http://www.cacma.org/ is very active in organising petitions, denuncias and demonstrations. I joined in several of their demos last year and was pleasantly surprised at the number who turned out every time. 99.9% Spanish, all ages and all "classes". The first big demo of the year will be taking place in Sevilla very soon.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Rotor
(Post 8532816)
You could say but it would not be true ,Ive lived here a lot more years than you and have learnt a lot more as well it appears, I dont wear blinker`s either, Like I said ,idiot.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by agoreira
(Post 8532897)
He does like to think he is the only that has any knowledge of Spain, doesn't he? :) I bet you even knew they produced wine in Jumilla! :)
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532913)
Hey I learn something new everyday. I'm not a wine buff but have friends who are and have never heard them talk about Murcian wines
Today, Jumilla's wines, particularly its reds, are internationally recognized – some are sold as far away as China – and often make "best value" lists. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8532707)
Fair enough, but a lot of foreigners miss the point about bullfighting. The matador/torero is not meant to be a hero. Noone sees him as a hero. In fact this isnt even a fight (in Spanish language). Bullfighting is an English word which implies a winner and loser, there is no such thing in the "corridas de toros" i.e. literally bull running!
Corridas de toros are about nobility and art in the journey to the death. It can be seen as a dance of death where the toreros/picadores etc help the bull on its way to die a noble and celebrated death. A much more noble and celebrated death than being electrically stunned in a windowless cowshed or growing up in a 50 square cm prison and never seeing natural light in the 45 days of torrid, insipid torturous life. Yet still 90% of us all eat animal meat without worrying about all that. People should grow up a bit! I myself think it is terrible, I dont see it as art, sprot or entertainment. To put a bull in a situation with a crowd crying out and cheering, must be bad enough. I dont know about a noble death either, animals feel pain, and to have been "stabbed" various times and then staggering for what seems like an age, untill finally the big thrust that fishes the bull off, seems anything but noble to me. I am also of the opinion that as we are in control as humans, whenever an animal has to be killed, for whatever reason, that we owe it to the animals and to ourselves to make it as quick and painless as possible. Living in the UK the subject of bullfighting always came up, whenever anyone found out that we were Spainsh. I found it hard not to feel ashamed about it, even though I had never been to a bullfight. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
It does make the meat SO tender.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Answering what I'm reading here
First, before anything else, is respect. I do not like bulls, and I'm from southern Spain. But of course, must be respected, is an old tradition and can not be changed so easily. Nor do I accept moral lessons from outside Spain, because fox hunting is in the UK, Canadians cruelly kill baby seals (not equal to a bull more than 600 kg) or what the Japanese do with dolphins and whales, to name a few examples I remember that there have always been bullfighting in Catalonia, and has never happened nothing. Interestingly, this is happening now, with this current govern of the PSOE in Catalonia, the govern of Montilla. Interestingly. And I remember that there are bulls in many other countries, like Mexico or France. Bullfighting in France is respected and defended even more than in Spain Certainly, to say that in Catalonia "We are not Spain", this says a minority, not all Catalonia, ok? It is that is different, ok? I repeat that I do not like (and I don't have to be Catalan so I do not like, because it seems that you think it's that in southern Spain we have bullfighting in the veins; because sincerly I don't know what strange prejudice is with Spain, especially with the south...) but simply I ask for respect and caution before an opinion on especially if you do not live here, because spain is not perfect, but the rest of the world neither is Disneyworld Thanks |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
I have taught students from all walks of life and over the years I have never met any who approved of bullfighting. In fact most think it shows Spain in a bad light and is barbaric. This surely is a good sign for the future. There are only a small minority of Spanish people who attend bullfights. The big money is in South America.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by elspeth sinclair
(Post 8533651)
The big money is in South America.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by elspeth sinclair
(Post 8533651)
There are only a small minority of Spanish people who attend bullfights.
Not saying it's true but the tauromaquia media always claim that more people go to corridas than go to watch the footie in Spain. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by expatasia
(Post 8534031)
Not saying it's true but the tauromaquia media always claim that more people go to corridas than go to watch the footie in Spain.
Football is popular absolutely everywhere. There are large areas of Spain where bullfighting has virtually died out and even in the remaining strongholds, there are just limited numbers of major events which mostly only the well-healed can afford to attend. I also get the impression that for many of those who do attend, its mainly because its the place to be seen. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
I'm with Cricketman - well expressed.
I don't bother to go to bullfights but don't have a knee-jerk reaction to them which is common with the Brits. Not that all Brits are against the corrida; there is a British bullfighting club local to me with 250 members. Their webpage is at Club Taurino Mojácar. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 8534063)
I would doubt that very much.
Football is popular absolutely everywhere. There are large areas of Spain where bullfighting has virtually died out and even in the remaining strongholds, there are just limited numbers of major events which mostly only the well-healed can afford to attend. I also get the impression that for many of those who do attend, its mainly because its the place to be seen. The season is upon us and every week there are umpteen bullfights or rejorneos going on. They are extremely popular and people here are of the opinion that it will never be banned. I just keep my mouth shut! |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Veleta
(Post 8534715)
The season is upon us and every week there are umpteen bullfights or rejorneos going on.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
What next after they ban bullfights hmm?
I know what PeTa want.... they want, ultimately to ban pet ownership.... |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by agoreira
(Post 8534732)
¿Rejorneo? Le sobra una erre. :)
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Veleta
(Post 8534738)
Jaja, you use Vd. to address me? Wow, I'm impressed...thx. I must admit I NEVER use the Vd. form. Speaking anyway. I suppose if I'm writing a formal letter I make more of an effort.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Veleta
(Post 8534738)
I must admit I NEVER use the Vd. form. Speaking anyway.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
my dh & kids are sitting cheering the bulls at the moment
it's a programme showing clips where the bull 'wins':lol: |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Veleta
(Post 8534715)
The season is upon us and every week there are umpteen bullfights or rejorneos going on. They are extremely popular and people here are of the opinion that it will never be banned. I just keep my mouth shut!
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by Hillybilly
(Post 8535098)
That used to be said of foxhunting with hounds in the UK too don't forget. In the early 80s I was active in hunt sabbing...and the anti-hunt movement had been going vociferously for over 40 years before the ban came into force. In time, in time...;)
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by expatasia
(Post 8534031)
Not saying it's true but the tauromaquia media always claim that more people go to corridas than go to watch the footie in Spain.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
The bous were looking very happy in our local plaza today.
Purebred specimens out for a bit of exercise????? Thank god we were in a cage outside a bar. |
Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by rugbymatt
(Post 8535236)
... and hunting has never been more popular and foxes have never been killed in such high numbers... all thanks to the Anti's.... now they think they have fought the good fight and won, almost no anti's bother turn up at all, in fact around here the hunt "monitors" turn up, check in with the Hunt Master and bugger off home.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by bil
(Post 8535605)
Matt, the idea that foxes will be an endangered species is a tad unfamiliar to me. Stopping them being killed wasn't the idea, - killing a pest is fair enough. It's the means that was so unpleasant. Shooting the damn things always was the most effective method IMO.
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Re: Toros - tide turning?
Originally Posted by bil
(Post 8535605)
Matt, the idea that foxes will be an endangered species is a tad unfamiliar to me. Stopping them being killed wasn't the idea, - killing a pest is fair enough. It's the means that was so unpleasant. Shooting the damn things always was the most effective method IMO.
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