Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Aug 25th 2017, 9:42 am
#61
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Surely that should be prevent attacks and if that fails reduce number of victims? Armed police for me are not the be all and end all of the solution and I am not a believer that all police in UK need to be armed. I do believe though that if police want to be armed voluntarily to protect themselves and the public then that should be an option open to them. Having better border controls at entry points will not in itself stop terror attacks as impossible to secure every part of any border or coastline. Non of these things will stop terrorists but of course they will make it more difficult to carry out their attacks and if they do carry them out hopefully reduce numbers killed or injured. Reality all of what has been mentioned is required without doubt. I also think that we need to be more proactive in approach, the failing from what I have read is generally intelligence is there most of these people have been known to some extent but have been left to their own devices or dealt with too lightly pre attack. Big problem in UK is in my view concern re race, authorities are terrified of being held to be acting in a racist manner given that these days terrorist tends to be muslim. That issue is not helped by our own politicians. If their is intelligence and concern re a person and terrorism then they should not be simply left to wander our streets. What's the answer internment didn't work in Northern Ireland in fact it was proved to be a breeding ground for terrorists. I don't know the answer but I do believe that we need to be more assertive and proactive and maybe if there is concern detention untill authorities are fully satisfied re terrorist intentions, problem is that leads to qauntanamo! Of course ordinary People also want to enjoy their life and don't want to live their life in a locked down state. Bit of a catch 22 situation really.
The Iman who was a major influence in radicalising the group was in the radar of the Belgian authorities.
Was this information passed on to the Spanish.
If any were concerned about the Iman within the community in the village they came from why did they not inform the authorities .
The best prevention is intelligence and for that to happen the authorities have to share information and the communities the terrorist come from to realise that by not co operating they are helping to increase racism and intolerance towards them.
Aug 25th 2017, 10:01 am
#62
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 77
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Of course these "people" are willing to die for their cause. So let them !!!. Governments should seek out Isis wherever they are and wipe them out. Deport all these so called Imams that subvert the young in our countries. Spend whatever it costs to keep all suspected radicals under tight surveillance and jump on them as soon as they put a foot out of line. Hard measures? Maybe but tough times need tough action.
Aug 25th 2017, 10:09 am
#63
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Of course these "people" are willing to die for their cause. So let them !!!. Governments should seek out Isis wherever they are and wipe them out. Deport all these so called Imams that subvert the young in our countries. Spend whatever it costs to keep all suspected radicals under tight surveillance and jump on them as soon as they put a foot out of line. Hard measures? Maybe but tough times need tough action.
Hard measures did not work in Northern Ireland, it resulted in more innocent deaths.
Other countries ,South American dictatorships used death squads, that did not work.
The US thought that by spending billions, invasions, countless deaths that would work, it did not.
Anyone got any ideas that will work ?
Aug 25th 2017, 11:51 am
#64
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Quite agree main aim should be to prevent attacks, but if they occur shouldn't reducing the number of victims also be an objective ?
Aug 25th 2017, 12:02 pm
#65
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
They only die after they have killed so a phyric victory.
Hard measures did not work in Northern Ireland, it resulted in more innocent deaths.
Other countries ,South American dictatorships used death squads, that did not work.
The US thought that by spending billions, invasions, countless deaths that would work, it did not.
Anyone got any ideas that will work ?
Hard measures did not work in Northern Ireland, it resulted in more innocent deaths.
Other countries ,South American dictatorships used death squads, that did not work.
The US thought that by spending billions, invasions, countless deaths that would work, it did not.
Anyone got any ideas that will work ?
Aug 25th 2017, 12:08 pm
#66
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
What is an acceptable number of victims.
Would it have been better in Barcelona if he had killed 15 or even one.
What we have to do is reduce the risk by as in London and Germany putting up traffic barriers.
In the UK we are used to having our every movement covered by cctv ,extend that across Europe.
A European anti terrorist police force with authority over local police, even if it upsets brexiters.
Aug 25th 2017, 1:07 pm
#67
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,625
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
[QUOTE=EMR;12324151
The best prevention is intelligence and for that to happen the authorities have to share information and the communities the terrorist come from to realise that by not co operating they are helping to increase racism and intolerance towards them.[/QUOTE]
I agree however getting the intelligence is not a simple matter especially when really it needs to come from such closed communities but as you mention the communities need to realise not helping authorities has a negative affect on them as you say. However with any plan one must have a plan B in case A is not effective or in operable i.e. failing to gather suitable intelligence. Then we must minimise the ease that terrorists can operate and when they do strike minimise the outcome. All of what has been said goes someway to that but non is outright answer. So yes authorities must gather and act upon good sound intelligence and also countries must pass on that intelligence correctly to each other. Not sure how Brexit will help with that.
As for Northern Ireland it was different to current situation for a start generally the IRA did pre warn of imminent attacks to minimise civilian casualties but not always. Also they were not scucide bombers quite happy to blow themselves up more likely to covertly plant bombs than strap them to themselves , security forces had methods to try and locate the bombs or use measures to counter. Also when Military first went into NI they were using very antiquated drills and tactics never intended to be used in the UK more for quelling problems on the streets of old commonwealth streets many years before. So the tactics had to change . Again though what did bring it to an end was simply intelligence and fact that there were people from within the IRA prepared to give information. Many reasons for that monetary gain, disillusionment with the IRA leaders way it was going length of the conflict etc. But in the end they came to negotiate because they knew they had been infaltrated and they were fighting a losing battle. The current IS terrorists don't seem work in any logical way because they radicalise people who actually end up hoping to die a martyr, so it is a totally different ball game. But yes intelligence is the initial key but that must be followed up by sound well planned effective action not just sat on in fear of upsetting a sector of the community.
The best prevention is intelligence and for that to happen the authorities have to share information and the communities the terrorist come from to realise that by not co operating they are helping to increase racism and intolerance towards them.[/QUOTE]
I agree however getting the intelligence is not a simple matter especially when really it needs to come from such closed communities but as you mention the communities need to realise not helping authorities has a negative affect on them as you say. However with any plan one must have a plan B in case A is not effective or in operable i.e. failing to gather suitable intelligence. Then we must minimise the ease that terrorists can operate and when they do strike minimise the outcome. All of what has been said goes someway to that but non is outright answer. So yes authorities must gather and act upon good sound intelligence and also countries must pass on that intelligence correctly to each other. Not sure how Brexit will help with that.
As for Northern Ireland it was different to current situation for a start generally the IRA did pre warn of imminent attacks to minimise civilian casualties but not always. Also they were not scucide bombers quite happy to blow themselves up more likely to covertly plant bombs than strap them to themselves , security forces had methods to try and locate the bombs or use measures to counter. Also when Military first went into NI they were using very antiquated drills and tactics never intended to be used in the UK more for quelling problems on the streets of old commonwealth streets many years before. So the tactics had to change . Again though what did bring it to an end was simply intelligence and fact that there were people from within the IRA prepared to give information. Many reasons for that monetary gain, disillusionment with the IRA leaders way it was going length of the conflict etc. But in the end they came to negotiate because they knew they had been infaltrated and they were fighting a losing battle. The current IS terrorists don't seem work in any logical way because they radicalise people who actually end up hoping to die a martyr, so it is a totally different ball game. But yes intelligence is the initial key but that must be followed up by sound well planned effective action not just sat on in fear of upsetting a sector of the community.
Last edited by bobd22; Aug 25th 2017 at 1:11 pm.
Aug 25th 2017, 3:23 pm
#68
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
The Barcelona attack is the classic example of what is currently happening.
The Iman who was a major influence in radicalising the group was in the radar of the Belgian authorities.
Was this information passed on to the Spanish.
If any were concerned about the Iman within the community in the village they came from why did they not inform the authorities .
The best prevention is intelligence and for that to happen the authorities have to share information and the communities the terrorist come from to realise that by not co operating they are helping to increase racism and intolerance towards them.
The Iman who was a major influence in radicalising the group was in the radar of the Belgian authorities.
Was this information passed on to the Spanish.
If any were concerned about the Iman within the community in the village they came from why did they not inform the authorities .
The best prevention is intelligence and for that to happen the authorities have to share information and the communities the terrorist come from to realise that by not co operating they are helping to increase racism and intolerance towards them.
Aug 25th 2017, 3:26 pm
#69
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 10,009
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Of course but focussing on reducing the number of victims is accepting that attacks are going to happen.
What is an acceptable number of victims.
Would it have been better in Barcelona if he had killed 15 or even one.
What we have to do is reduce the risk by as in London and Germany putting up traffic barriers.
In the UK we are used to having our every movement covered by cctv ,extend that across Europe.
A European anti terrorist police force with authority over local police, even if it upsets brexiters.
What is an acceptable number of victims.
Would it have been better in Barcelona if he had killed 15 or even one.
What we have to do is reduce the risk by as in London and Germany putting up traffic barriers.
In the UK we are used to having our every movement covered by cctv ,extend that across Europe.
A European anti terrorist police force with authority over local police, even if it upsets brexiters.
Aug 25th 2017, 3:55 pm
#70
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 77
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Personally, I don't care what it takes just do it, but do it before more innocents get hurt. Like somebody else already said " nothing to hide, nothing to fear.
Aug 25th 2017, 4:46 pm
#71
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,625
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
There actually is a Europe wide police force of sorts and it is not new. This article refers to it but as a military police unit. It isn't a military unit at all but is an amalgamation of the gendarmerie type police forces in Europe which are classed as semi military such as the Guardia Civil. It is not new I trained with them 10 years ago however the UK do not have an equivalent to gendarmerie. However bit like forming an EU Army, civil liberty groups don't like it, but they do all train together.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...risis-training
That's the Express's view of it but here is the official link if anyone is interested
http://www.eurogendfor.org
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...risis-training
That's the Express's view of it but here is the official link if anyone is interested
http://www.eurogendfor.org
Last edited by bobd22; Aug 25th 2017 at 4:58 pm.
Aug 28th 2017, 4:47 pm
#72
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,171
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Yes very very strict immigration policies , and a one strike and your off home along with all your relatives policy, got property here ? well it will be sold by public auction and funds forwarded only if you can prove the money was obtained legitimately.
Edit: But some will say "but they were born here", well their parents of grandparents are unlikely to have been born here so if the threat of them all being deported was hanging over a potential jihads families I think they`d think twice before they decided to blow up women and children, treat scum like scum.
Edit: But some will say "but they were born here", well their parents of grandparents are unlikely to have been born here so if the threat of them all being deported was hanging over a potential jihads families I think they`d think twice before they decided to blow up women and children, treat scum like scum.
Last edited by Rotor; Aug 28th 2017 at 5:03 pm.
Sep 3rd 2017, 1:27 pm
#73
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
Yes very very strict immigration policies , and a one strike and your off home along with all your relatives policy, got property here ? well it will be sold by public auction and funds forwarded only if you can prove the money was obtained legitimately.
Edit: But some will say "but they were born here", well their parents of grandparents are unlikely to have been born here so if the threat of them all being deported was hanging over a potential jihads families I think they`d think twice before they decided to blow up women and children, treat scum like scum.
Edit: But some will say "but they were born here", well their parents of grandparents are unlikely to have been born here so if the threat of them all being deported was hanging over a potential jihads families I think they`d think twice before they decided to blow up women and children, treat scum like scum.
Wake up , get real, there is no solution , we will just have to live with the risk just as those in NI did for decades.
The difference this time, is that there is no political solution , just one of attrition.
Sep 3rd 2017, 1:38 pm
#74
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,171
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
How will that work If the first thing they do is join an extremist cell and then buy an old car and drive it into a crowd.
Wake up , get real, there is no solution , we will just have to live with the risk just as those in NI did for decades.
The difference this time, is that there is no political solution , just one of attrition.
Wake up , get real, there is no solution , we will just have to live with the risk just as those in NI did for decades.
The difference this time, is that there is no political solution , just one of attrition.
Sep 3rd 2017, 1:43 pm
#75
Banned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: Terrorist attack in Barcelona
So we give up just as its gets started ? , I believe my ideas in my final paragraph would certainly steady a few , rather than thinking they would die as a religious / folk hero and instead they would be responsible for their families economic demise , that would no be welcomed by any of them.