Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Hi all. First post...please be gentle!!!

Considering my options at the moment.

I'm 53, and my wife is 45. Both of us are retired, UK-resident, and we own a property in the Alicante area.

In a couple of years, I can access my personal pension, and as ut stands, I can access 25% of it tax-free. We spoke to a tax adviser in Spain, who explained to us that IF we became Spanish-resident, then that 25% would be taxable in Spain.
Not wishing to risk a (significant) hit, we decided that we'd remain UK-resident until my wife's personal pension can be accessed, in around 12 years time, and then look to become Spanish-resident at that point. In the meantime, we'd just continue the 90-in-rolling-180 day visits.

This morning, though, my wife asked me why we hadn't considered applying for the NLV, renewing after the first year, and then effectively giving up the NLV, going back to the UK, drawing down from my pension, and then reapplying for a NLV again.

Sounds tricky, and probably off-puttingly time consuming, but I just wondered whether that's even possible...to "reapply" for a NLV after giving it up (and eventually to apply for full Spanish residency at a later date)?

There's lots out there about renewing after a year...but there doesn't seem to be anything about giving up the Visa.

Anyone out there with any info?

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

NLV is a year's visa, and it's entirely up to you whether to renew it or not at the end. So you aren't doing anything improper or underhand just to live in Spain for a year or two years. You don't have to live for 5 consecutive years (though this gives you permanent residence). As for your tax position, what you should do is to make sure you claim your 25% in the year while still a UK resident, and only move to Spain in the year after. Spanish tax year is calendar year, so just make sure you stay in UK until 31st December in the year you withdraw the lump sum. NLV has a passive income requirement of around 34,000 euro per year for a couple.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Looking at it there is no rule and you would just have to apply from the beginning again, of course any application can be refused. If you just go over to avoid tax maybe they could refuse if it's too obvious, but I'm not a lawyer.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I claim no expertise but offer the following as personal observations after very limited experience with the NLV! The NLV means you are both financially totally independent, so probably in the first application I would think the consulate will want to understand very carefully how, at your ages, you are both retired and doing no meaningful work. i.e convince them that you are not trying the NLV route only to do some kind of work (even if internet based) while you are in Spain. As Joppa says, they would require convincing about your income.

Second comment I would offer is to make sure you are both clear about the difference between resident and being tax resident. The residency covered by the NLV gets you round the schengen rules, but the timing of your arrival and departure from Spain would determine the tax years that you would be tax resident. Playing a "now you see me, now you don't" game I don't think would go down well especially if you were to reapply without any reason other than tax avoidance. Having the NLV is not the same as being tax resident, and it naturally expires if you don't renew it. Tax years are the natural calendar years in Spain, so keep that in mind too. Correct timing will be very important for your plan to work.

To get the NLVs you are going to be interviewed at the consulate, and that second interview to reapply for a second pair of NLVs could be made more difficult in your plan. As you are so close to being able to drawdown tax free in a couple of years, stickiing to the schengen rules in the meantime doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I think you are exaggerating a bit. No?

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Considering these, I think it may be prudent for us to wait at least until 2025...draw down my 25% tax-free, then start an NLV application later in that year OR very early 2026, in order to ensure that in the calendar year 2025, we are fully UK-resident.

We would then have 8+ years until my wife would be able to draw on her personal pension at 57 years old, in 2034.

Income/amount-wise - we have considerable savings and no mortgage in the UK, and in 2025, I could start drawing £1000 a month or so from my personal pension to prove I have a regular income. Proof of savings/income could presumably be from UK savings account statements, and from proof of the €34000+ being in my Spanish bank account.

On that - I've seen differing opinions on whether it's €34000 physically "in your account" in year 1, and then €68000 physically "in your account" in year 2.......OR whether it's €34000 "in your account" in year 1, and then "prove you have €34000 again" in year 2...ie. the €34000 you have in the first year could be "recycled" in the second year.

I wondered whether there's anyone who's actually gone through this who can say one way or the other.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

If you have actual bank savings in excess of £ 60,000 at time of application and a income from a pension you will be fine. I wouldn't worry too much. The one thing I should say that retiring so early ( wife 45) to a foreign country will become quite boring after a couple of years. You won't have many friends and the days can be long with nothing much to do. In UK many people choose to work part time or do voluntary work both which will be limited to you if on a NLV.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Ronnyone......

Why would you assume that the OP wouldn't have many friends and get bored easily?

Spain is a big country to explore especially as the OP has plenty of funding.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

That is true and there are plenty of people who have never worked a day in their life;) . Some also prefer their pets to people which I totally understand:lol:.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I mean in the beginning you won't have many friends as its a new place, you don't speak the language and work is an important part of socialising without having to be drinking or eating. Everyone is different admittedly but I would think most people would feel a bit bored and lonely only being 45.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

No problem there...we have WAY more friends in Spain than we do in the UK!!!

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I know what you mean, but of course all people are different. I even see it here and don't know how some people in towns/cities manage without a car. Hanging around the same place would be too boring for me and we often just drive 2 hours to a different beach or go hiking etc.. It's the same when we drive to Spain and I don't know how people manage to sit in the sun all day and maybe just walk 500 metres.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I only mention it because I think folk often don't think about what every day life will be like in spain and especially when it comes to living here for decades. For me 45- 50 is way too young to stop your working life. And if you come to a foreign country like Spain you are limited to expat ghettos for social company ( unless you speak Spanish). And those places are basically just holiday zones so life revolves around beach, pool and bars. When you work you integrate into the full community- you learn about the culture, the politics, language etc. Just my opinion though.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I think it is safe to assume the OP and his wife have a good working knowledge of their lifestyle in Spain. I interpreted the initial post shows there are doubts being about the tax and double NLV application. I hold to what I posted earlier as it was based on my own similiar situation of avoiding Spanish tax on the 25% drawdown from the pension. I personally waited in order to do a single NLV application. I also used my personal pension fund to show my ability to satisfy the income requirements.

EDIT: The only advantage of doing the double NLV application is to gain 6 extra months in Spain, at the risk of making the second NLV application open to more questions. I'm not suggesting it is against the rules, quite the contrary, but could lead to more questions at the second interview.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I do have some sympathy for the argument that Ronnyone makes.I would say that anyone retiring to a "foreign" country needs to have a plan and need to ask themselves "Exactly what do I want from my retirement?" and importantly" How will I achieve it?" I was fortunate in being able to "retire" at the age of 51 and moved to France but I did keep some work going in the UK which also enabled to keep an eye on parents etc.I chose Brittany because we wanted to have a go at self sufficiency and that area had smallholdings and houses at reasonable prices plus had the sort of leisure that we liked.
Just as importantly you need an "escape plan" it case it goes wrong and thinking long term what about your own old age?
And of course you really need a good working knowledge of the language to really get the best out of your life.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

There is something called public transport! We have lived in Spain for 17 years without owning a car in fact I didn't even renew my driving licence when it ran out.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Not for me it wasnt! I retired, and started drawing my pension on my 50th birthday.

I have never regretted it and have lived here for 23 years now and never eared a penny but have had a wonderful time.. In two years time (inshallah) I will celebrate having spent more years retired than at work.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I gave up my job and moved to Spain when I was 50, and like others here have said, have never regretted it. I certainly don't spend all day sitting in the sun, nor have I ever been to the beach. I devoted a lot of time for the first two years I was here to learning Spanish, going to classes, doing the homework I was set, and also doing an intercambio twice a week with a young Spanish man who was learning English. We like to travel and explore places, and find no difficulty doing that by using public transport. Until 3 years ago I spent 3 afternoons a week at the gym, swimming and doing classes, until my cardiologist advised me to cut out the strenuous stuff. So now I walk 5km to the public pool in the next town, rather than going to the one 10 minutes' walk away, just for the exercise. It's quite possible to go hiking by catching a bus and getting off at a convenient spot and then hiking back. Our Ayuntamiento runs a senderismo programme of hikes outside of the summer months, transport provided, at a very reasonable cost. Living in a town without a car, I would bet I do more walking than people who live in the countryside and have to get in the car every time they need something from a shop. It certainly beats having to get up in the morning and go to work, putting up with crap from the people you have to deal with.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Your comment mortgage free implies you own your own house. If you’re not aware, watch out for the Capital Gains Tax trap if planning on selling a UK property when tax resident in Spain. Depending on property value gain, you might wipe out the tax free lump sum from the pension.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Hola,
Have you considered NOT taking the lump sum but converting all the money into your pension - it sounds like you don't actually need the lump sum and it is not compulsary

Davexf

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Public transport is my worst nightmare and will of course have to use it when I'm no longer able to drive, you are just so limited with the places you can go to for a day trip. We are lucky that we have a bus stop near our place in Spain, so at least we could get to town but people who live rural still need a car.

Last month we had breakfast in Pineda de Mar and from our place it's just over a 30 min drive and decided to have a visit to Tossa de Mar later in the day which would be 50 mins drive from Pineda. Try doing the same with public transport and it would be nearly 8 hours travelling and I have not looked at the journey back home from Tossa.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

The amounts are what you have in the account(s) at the time you make the visa application. The first year, it is based on 400% of a value called IPREM (Indicador Público de Renta de Efectos Múltiples). It is an indexed value which moves each year. When you do the renewal, that would be for two years, so you would need to prove at the time of the renewal, that you have funds to satisfy 2 x 400% x IPREM. It is a snapshot of your funds at the time of the application. Your private pension possibly would not be allowed as funds for this purpose as at this moment in time you cannot access it. You would be well advised to get professional advice from a lawyer to understand that aspect.

Without knowing the numbers, but given what I think I have understood for your situation, would the golden visa be possible? That has many advantages in terms of allowing residency without being forced into tax residency. Given that you already own property in Spain, you may even be able to work that into the equation. Absolutely no personal knowledge to help you on this, but is it worth looking into?

EDIT: My thinking in terms of the golden visa would be that it gets you round all of the residency issues, and in 2025 assuming you still want to do a drawdown of your pension fund to improve your liquidity you would then just need to make sure you are not tax resident in Spain in that tax year. Again,professional advice would be recommended.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Spain, Portugal and other countries offering Golden Visa are under pressure from EU to rescind it, as it's considered unfair and discriminatory for the majority of other applicants, i.e. visa for the rich. So there is no guarantee Golden Visa will still be on offer when you are ready to apply. While visas are a sovereign issue allowing each member state to decide and implement, if something is seen to be against the spirit of EU, they would want to intervene and put pressure on.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Originally to fast track Russian oligarchs wanting to buy properties in Spain but probably not many oligarchs nowadays in the current climate! Also the race to the bottom started with countries like Malta offering bargain basement deals that give fastrack EU residency, so not at all surprised by what you write.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Lots of replies - thanks - and plenty of food for thought! In response to some of the points...

No - we don't own a home in the UK. Sold it last year, and we now live 6 months of the year in a park-home on a 12-month holiday park, and the other 6 months (in sporadic chunks, as the current rules permit) in our Spanish villa.

As for the lump sum suggestion...taking the 25% tax-free is just my current thought. It might well be that I plough it back in somehow, but the thought of having it under my full control is tempting! We have more than enough in savings to cover however many years are needed to be "proven" for the €34000 each yeae..but I wonder whether an "income" does need to be shown - or is proof of savings enough?

As for retiring early...both of us worked for years (36 for me, 29 for my wife) in IT...the last few years for UK banks. Over the last 5-6 years, the constant internal bullying and divisiveness combined with "senior management" thinking that teams delivering less than 10% of what they were delivering 10 years ago (due to management incompetence and farcical levels of risk-adversity) was "fabulous" just drove us out. The majority of my work (software engineering) was being farmed out to offshore companies anyway, and by the time I left, there were only about 10 staff left in the UK office, and 250+ in India (doing the same work that 25 of us had been doing for 5 years)! I took a couple of months out due to stress (70+ hour weeks were pretty common during Covid), and ultimately bailed out. People wonder why a fair number of people in their 50s are retiring early...I saw numerous examples, and fully understood their reasons. Some large companies publically tout that they're "all over" mental health. In reality, they're driving their staff into the ground. Similar story with my wife...worked for a different bank, as an anslyst in a team of 4 people. After 4 years, the "powers that be" decided to replace the 4 people with 4 teams based in India, each consisting of 15 people...so 60 people to do the job of 4. She was a contractor, and although she was asked to renew, her health was suffering. Working out the figures, it just wasn't worth carrying on - particularly after seeing (between us) 4 work colleagues dying between the ages of 48 and 52.

My skills are "legacy" ones, so my line of work was dying a death anyway. My wife could return, but as it stands, she has no desire to, and she sees no real benefit.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

"We have more than enough in savings to cover however many years are needed to be "proven" for the €34000 each yeae..but I wonder whether an "income" does need to be shown - or is proof of savings enough?"

Some regions will not take savings into consideration as income, some will accept a nominal amount plus a slight reduction in annual income. Annual income of €34,000 per couple has to be a solid provable income from pensions, stocks and shares etc, etc. as part of the NLV application. Full private healthcare paid for a full year is also required.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Have you any solid proof of this? I haven't heard anyone say they have been refused after showing savings at the £34,000.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consul...lucrativa.aspx

The link mentioned guaranteed income in the first paragraph. Savings are not a guaranteed income.
Income has to be proven again at years 2 and 4, saving could be depleted by then for "some applicants" NLV renewal.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Sorry Steve, this text is from your link "that verify the perception of a periodic and sufficient income or the holding of an estate that guarantees the perception of that income."
The "or" means savings can be used to cover the IPREM requirement.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

I have in the past read on expat sites of a refusal to issue the NLV due to insufficient proof of "Guaranteed" income. Savings are not a guaranteed income as they can be depleted in the short term by paying back funds borrowed to satisfy the income requirements to gain an NLV. Documented evidence of regular income is normally required.

When i applied for residency i had to prove regular income paid into a Spanish bank account from pensions.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Again....it's an odd one. That would make residency almost impossible for anyone under STATE pension age...because one could set up a "regular" payment from a personal pension, and then stop it at any time...so it's not "guaranteed".

Seems like a minefield.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

My case was a state pension income only. Everything else was savings. Of course savings can be depleted, but the important bit is that you show you can cover the 400% iprem in either income or savings or a combination of the two. If you have an account with 60k in savings, I doubt there would be any issue about the income requirement. Obviously, when you come to renew that would be subject to review at the time of the renewal.

EDIT: Was your residency application an NLV? Can't see how you can be required to have a Spanish bank account with an income when you haven't yet got the visa?

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

No I didn't need a visa as it was pre Brexit.

I applied for my residency 9 years ago and had to show regular income paid into a Spanish bank account (I think it was for 6 months) of enough money to satisfy the authorities that we wouldn't be a burden on the state.

My actual income at that time was from a couple of private pensions and i had to give full details of reliable regular income.

Even though I had a substantial amount of savings from the house sale, 2 cars and 2 motorcycles (an amount that we could have lived on for years) the authorities would not take that into account and I was warned that I had only just scraped through with the income requirements!!

Some regions may take into account substantial savings and other regions could dismiss it.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

It seems to me that the Golden Visa is the simplest way to go. The government guidance mentions "sufficient financial means or income"

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Although that might disappear soon if Spain follow Ireland and Portugal
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...could-be-next/

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Factor in that visa (and tax) rules change, and the options that are available today may not be available later.

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

When we applied in late 2020 Alicante wanted to see €9000 in each bank account maintained for tat least the three months before applying for residency and to show regular ins and outs to prove you were living here, along with the private healthcare.
One of our friends Daughter and her husband are moving over in July on the NLV and they were asked to provide at least €1000 a month pension (he is a retired civil servant) and at least €20,000 in savings which must be maintained and not used as they will have to show this at the renewal and a statement must be issued at that time.
So they couldn't just spend it and then replace near to renewal time as they have to show its money they dont need.
This was at Manchester Consulate

We have other friends who dont like to listen or even check what they need, who are off for an interview for the NLV in Manchester next week. All organised by their accountant (who has given them bad advise before)
They have overstayed the 90 days by around 40 and seem to think that they will leave Alicante with no issues (maybe) breeze into the consulate in Manchester the next day, hand over their passports, show the amount of money they stuck in a Spanish bank etc and they will get the visa stamp on the day and they can then come back here to Spain two days later as resident....
They weren't even aware that they then need to get a TIE they thought the visa was enough.....

A group of us have a book with various scenarios as to what may happen to them...
Im betting that at a minimum they will have to wait 90 days to reset the clock.

Its not

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

Barriej..... :goodpost:

Even if someone is extremely well off I dont think money can virtually buy an NLV. But the Golden Visa can be bought, for now.

Steve

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

It does seem almost too good to be true, which is why it may well be dropper or the amount increased.

Easy to apply for, easy to get permanent residency, no requirement to become tax resident, family can be included, no restriction on working - whats not to like!

Re: Non Lucrative Visa & returning to UK
 

This is my point - if you qualify for a visa now, don't assume you can delay and apply later as the rules may change.