jago25_98

1) I am not looking to buy a house
2) I am not looking to buy land and build a house on it.
3) I am looking here in Spain because the planning, prices and speculation bleedover into other land markets has priced me out of the market.
4) I am not looking for residency here.
5) I want to reduce any bills and liabilities as much as possible - low footprint is how I live but I need somewhere to do my projects
6) It´s also a (´very´ - considering the market) longterm investment

So what I want to do is rent a small flat later but first buy some land roughly where I want to live to do as much of the things that I can´t do in a flat. A bit like an allotment but with wider use. These include:

- grow some plants
- do some composting
- park a low value car from time to time
- maybe fix my car if I´m desperate for somewhere to work on it
- store some water
- do some woodwork
- anything else I come across

I have found somewhere with water but now I need to do the dreaded N.I.E.

I believe there is no point for me to get a temporary NIE. I should go direct for the permenent NIE if I want to buy land. The form asks me for an address in Spain... is it safe to put an aquaintance, a lawyer or even a PO Box?
I have been renting looking at areas as I go so I don´t have a permenant address here.

I also heard I might have to have a Spanish bank account. I definately want to avoid that.

It is now against the law to sell land without using the NIE... I can´t help wondering what actually happens if a sale does go through this way. Worst case scenario might be seller goes to jail and buyer loses everything but that doesn´t seem likely to me... perhaps monetory fines all round?

In terms of planning I´m getting the impression that many do use thier rustic land to store some tools and throw a moped inside a shed. I hope I could put an old car somewhere like that like you would in a barn... even if it´s probably isnt strictly allowed. Can you give me a Spanish viewpoint rather than the Brit expat everything-by-the-book interpretation on that?

Alternatively is there a way round all this guff such as a long term lease/loan so I can avoid all the hassle?


edit:

Saw this... I think it makes sense... perhaps it´s not safe to buy here in this regard:

billgates

Not sure how you would be able to buy the land without a bank account.
Payments over a certain amount can only be made through a bank. Someone told me that 500€ notes are now not legal tender for everyday transactions.

Land ownership must be registered through a notary so don't know how you would get around that part.

You have to pay land taxes to the local govt. every year. There is a database of ownership of every parcela of land so someone, somewhere , will have to pay the taxes.

Nice idea trying to live outside of the system but it won't be easy if you try and buy some land.

pete_l

An NIE is no big deal. As for putting an address on it .... well, people *do* move.
If you want any spanish utilities: water, electricity then you'll need a bank account to pay the bills - again, it's no big deal. It's also against the law in Spain to make financial transactions in cash for amounts more than €2500. Can you buy your patch of land for less than that? Otherwise the money will have to go through the financial system somehow.

As for buying land without an NIE, I'm no lawyer, but if you *try* to do that, you may well find that all you've done is given some guy some money - that the land title won't get registered to you. Same with having a spanish car or motorbike - to buy one will need an NIE and an address in Spain (somewhere the police can send any fines to)

jago25_98

Thanks folks :-) £2500 is the limit that's good to know. I wonder how much the tax is on rustic land... I hope it's not too much - bills can go cross border so I need to think about this rather the simple threat of losing land in the possibility I can't pay (planning for everything)

missile

I don't get it, why not just be legal and sleep at night?

Would you break the law in UK or wherever you were born?

jago25_98

I'm necessarily looking to break the law... I don't even know what the law is half the time like most people. The idea is to keep off the radar where possible. I want to do everything I can to avoid the gov taking what I have.

If one is 100% in the white then you are 100% reliant on a fair government. If you are 100% blackmarket criminal then you are reliant on not getting caught. If you're in a grey area then perhaps you can adapt accordingly in uncertain times.

I have experienced the Danish, Norwegians and HMRC all coming after me for a single £2000 monthly wage packet. It is best to avoid governments if you possibly can.


The aspect of this question though is regards planning laws here in Spain. That is, I am looking for multi use land ideally. But the problem I have is that multi use tends to means everything including a house - but I don't want a house and that prices me out of the market.

This is why I wondered if it's possible to lease some land very long term from someone (5 years? 99 years?). But I have no idea on common examples of situations where that might happen or how to go about it?

billgates

I understand where you're coming from with the government taking your hard-earned income.
However, someone has to pay for the upkeep of the roads, rubbish collection, street lighting, sewerage, and all the other "services" you might not think you need. Let's say someone breaks into your remote little shack while you're out and steals everything you possess. You might find the services of the local police useful. Actually that may be a bit of a contradiction - local police/useful, but anyway, the point is that someone has to pay something for them, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that I'm the only person in my area that actually pays any tax.

jago25_98

To reaffirm, I'm not looking to avoid tax or break the law - I'm looking to avoid using the banks and government because both are about to take us to the cleaners. Just because I want to pay in cash or gold doesn't mean I'm a criminal (my funds are in a fully audited and tracked system with no privacy) - it just means that I can see that there is a risk the money will disappear if I put it through the banking system as I am required.

As for the reporting requirements - it is best to keep beaurocracy as minimal as possible.


So, there is no multiuse or industrial land in Spain? Just rustic and residential?

mikelincs

Minimal and beaurocracy and Spain are words that just do NOT go together, you will find, even just buying the land, there is an enormous amount of beaurocracy, then getting permission to do anything with it just doubles. You would need planning permission to put any structure on the land. Spain is a country where you even, legally, need planning permission to paint the outside of your house. You will find that living as far under the radar as you want isn't possible as you will have to have bank account, NIE number (AFAIK there is no such thing as a 'temporary' NIE number as your NIE number is similar to the UK NI number).

missile

Is it not against forum rules to ask for advice to break the law?

amideislas

An abogado not too long ago gave me this advice:

"The law has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. The only thing that matters in court is that you can prove that what you did or did not do is compliant with what is written in law".

He went on to say that "If you think the law is wrong, then you need to become a politician and try to change the law, otherwise you can't argue in court that you haven't done anything wrong because the law is wrong".

rugbymatt

I have some spare tin foil if you need a snazzy hat fashioned....

amideislas

Well, that speaks for itself.

Anyway, my advice to the OP is to live within the bounds of the law as much as you can. It will be a godsend later on if you are ever charged with doing something "against the law", because your previous actions (or lack of them) is perfectly good evidence of whatever they may decide to prosecute was your intent, whether the "law" suits you or not.

pete_l

A better way to think of it is as "land you can build on" and land that you can't.
However, that doesn't mean that (if you have the right sort of land) you can build whatever you please - not unless you're very well connected . You still have to go through the hoops, whether you wish to build a house, hotel, factory or nuclear waste reprocessing plant.

Within the "land you can build on" classification, there will still be zoning: residential, industrial etc.


Oh, and I'd advise against using gold as the basis for bartering. Buying gold attracts IVA, so you're:

• paying tax - a lot of tax, and
• losing ~ 20% of your "value" right away
• a slave to the whims and idiosyncracies of the exchange rate

Plus, you can't eat gold so it's lack of intrinsic value leaves you at a disadvantage

Dick Dasterdly

I knew a guy in Tenerife who kept completely under the radar.
He had an old Finca up in the hills with all services laid on, yet officially did not exist.
I won't go into the details of how he did it and often wonder if it would still be possible now.
He was there for all the ten years that I knew him, before eventually moving on to Goa.