Moving to Raspay
Jan 10th 2014, 8:52 am
#16
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Joined: Jul 2013
Location: South West England
Posts: 19
Re: Moving to Raspay
That is the same or similar contract we signed a few months ago for a property near Baza.
Why would you lose your money if you walked away as the contract clearly states the money would be refundable in the event of a paperwork problem?
We are about to sign the 10% contract and are going over the week of the 19th to sign for the house at the Notary office.
I fully sympathise with how you are feeling as it has been like treading on egg shells getting this far, selling in the UK and buying abroad not for the feint hearted.
This forum has been really useful during the research and preparation stages and has enabled me to ask questions of lawyers and estate agents that even they are surprised at!!
Good luck fingers crossed all will be well for you.
Why would you lose your money if you walked away as the contract clearly states the money would be refundable in the event of a paperwork problem?
We are about to sign the 10% contract and are going over the week of the 19th to sign for the house at the Notary office.
I fully sympathise with how you are feeling as it has been like treading on egg shells getting this far, selling in the UK and buying abroad not for the feint hearted.
This forum has been really useful during the research and preparation stages and has enabled me to ask questions of lawyers and estate agents that even they are surprised at!!
Good luck fingers crossed all will be well for you.
Jan 10th 2014, 9:05 am
#17
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Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Velez-Malaga
Posts: 4,942
Re: Moving to Raspay
Hi,
I contact a few days ago with the seller to obtain a copy of the paperwork. I have checked the documentation and that´s the situation:
The property has on the deeds 145 sqm. In reality has around 209 sqm., but the building size is correct. Unfortunately this problem is very usual in the country side but the most important is has the correct building size. I will try put in order catastro (on plans) but on the land registry is impossible extended the size. Are you okay with this? (Annex to you in PDF the plans and measurements for help to you to understand the situation).
I contact a few days ago with the seller to obtain a copy of the paperwork. I have checked the documentation and that´s the situation:
The property has on the deeds 145 sqm. In reality has around 209 sqm., but the building size is correct. Unfortunately this problem is very usual in the country side but the most important is has the correct building size. I will try put in order catastro (on plans) but on the land registry is impossible extended the size. Are you okay with this? (Annex to you in PDF the plans and measurements for help to you to understand the situation).
I'm very glad it's only a reservation contract and that your money should be refundable. My advice would be not to continue with the purchase and to get it back.
Even if the problem regarding the embargo can be resolved satisfactorily, you would still be left with the problem above. The lawyer would "try" to put things in order with Catastro, but "on the land registry is impossible"? Why would you want to end up with a house that can't be properly registered in all respects? I certainly wouldn't be "okay with this". If for no other reason that the problem would still be there if you in turn ever wanted to sell the house.
It is something people come across quite often, because in years gone by it was commonplace for people to build extensions and do alterations to their properties without obtaining the correct licences and having the registration details amended (which costs money, and building licence permission for what they wanted to do might not have been granted anyway). But there are so many properties on the market at the moment, keep looking and you can find one that doesn't land you with these kinds of problems, and the state of the market is such that no-one else is likely to come along and snatch your dream property from under your nose whilst the vitally necessary checks are done, no matter what an agent may tell you. You know now how you should proceed and what to look for, at least.
Jan 10th 2014, 9:17 am
#18
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2013
Location: South West England
Posts: 19
Re: Moving to Raspay
Well said LR. This is what happened in respect of our property. The title deeds
did not reflect the size of the property. In fairness it was the land size, the deeds stated that it was 8 Hectares but the size being sold was 2.2 Hectares.
This is as you say not uncommon as plots of land from say previously large farms
get sold off over the years and the deeds do not always reflect this.
Our lawyer would not let us proceed until the seller had an architect attend the property at his expense re measure the property and provide a certificate duly stamped to reflect the new size. This will be reflected in the new deeds.
So not insurmountable but something that as you say needs to be done or you will inherit the problem.
did not reflect the size of the property. In fairness it was the land size, the deeds stated that it was 8 Hectares but the size being sold was 2.2 Hectares.
This is as you say not uncommon as plots of land from say previously large farms
get sold off over the years and the deeds do not always reflect this.
Our lawyer would not let us proceed until the seller had an architect attend the property at his expense re measure the property and provide a certificate duly stamped to reflect the new size. This will be reflected in the new deeds.
So not insurmountable but something that as you say needs to be done or you will inherit the problem.
Jan 10th 2014, 12:47 pm
#19
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,548
Re: Moving to Raspay
Ray, have you asked the lawyer and the agent what the debt is, and what is owed to whom? And who actually owns the property, the seller, the bank, the government (?), or the company (??). The best advice has already been posted, i.e. get your deposit back and walk away. Have you phoned your lawyer or agent yet to ask these questions since you first posted on here?
Jan 10th 2014, 10:26 pm
#20
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Re: Moving to Raspay
Hi,
I have had a whole bunch of paperwork, all in Spanish, since utilising the advice from this forum and asking the right questions.
Now need to have documents translated and ask some more relevant questions.
Many thanks for your help and sound advice.
I have had a whole bunch of paperwork, all in Spanish, since utilising the advice from this forum and asking the right questions.
Now need to have documents translated and ask some more relevant questions.
Many thanks for your help and sound advice.
Jan 11th 2014, 1:47 pm
#21
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,548
Re: Moving to Raspay
Now I am curious. If your lawyer and agent can both speak English, what did they tell you about the debt and who owes what and owns what when you phoned them? Why are the documents they have just sent you in Spanish when your lawyer has already sent you documents in both Spanish and English? Are they playing for time for some reason? If your lawyer is working for you then he should provide these documents translated into English. Have you phoned them and spoken to them yet?
Jan 11th 2014, 5:20 pm
#22
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Re: Moving to Raspay
Hi,
Yes, I have spoken with the lawyer but it was only the 'threat' of pulling out of the deal if all paperwork was not in place before the 30 day deadline to the agent, that prompted the sudden flourish of information all in Spanish.
I have requested translations.
Yes, I have spoken with the lawyer but it was only the 'threat' of pulling out of the deal if all paperwork was not in place before the 30 day deadline to the agent, that prompted the sudden flourish of information all in Spanish.
I have requested translations.
Jan 13th 2014, 6:11 pm
#23
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Re: Moving to Raspay
The lawyer is slightly reticent in forwarding full translations of the documents. However, I had a go myself with the land registry using google translate. Not the most perfect way to proceed but following that here is my response to the lawyer.
"Hi,
I appreciate you would not be able to translate everything but there was a lot of information to retain and process from the telephone conversation.
I am still confused how the owner will satisfy a €284.282,37 imposition with the sale price of €44.000 for the house, less what commission is paid to the agents arranging the sale?
Also the 'land registry' indicates that from February 11, 2009 there is a four year period for settlement of debts amounting to €546. That was last April. Was that debt paid?
Then the whole estate is encumbered with the huge debt already mentioned along with €7.581,67 interest from April 23, 2012. That is a debt of over a quarter of a million euros!
From that time it has a further five year imposition that would take it to April 2017.
I need an explanation of this in English. How much is owed, by whom and has it been paid?
The house is also described as a farm that has been 'reformed' as a dwelling.
Part of this was for livestock? If this was the case, how do we obtain full legal status of the dwelling as a dwelling since the reformation?
Finally, I need an assurance, in writing, that the discrepancies in floor space and area of the boundaries are in accordance with any local planning laws for the type of property described and there would not be future difficulties issuing from the local authorities.
In essence, I do not wish to inherit debts on the property. I do not wish to find that any of the reformation does not already meet existing planning and construction laws and is all fully paid for, if legal. I do not wish to discover that there are any confusions relating to inheritance because of the way the land has been parcelled up.
To make any head way with the sale all these would have to be 100% water tight and all relevant paperwork in place before February 02, 2014.
Many thanks."
So that's the state of play at the moment...
Such a shame. It's a good price for a slice of Spain but the horror stories make buyers wary, which is a no win situation for sellers and buyers.
Those levels of mistrust grind the whole system to a stagnant standstill.
"Hi,
I appreciate you would not be able to translate everything but there was a lot of information to retain and process from the telephone conversation.
I am still confused how the owner will satisfy a €284.282,37 imposition with the sale price of €44.000 for the house, less what commission is paid to the agents arranging the sale?
Also the 'land registry' indicates that from February 11, 2009 there is a four year period for settlement of debts amounting to €546. That was last April. Was that debt paid?
Then the whole estate is encumbered with the huge debt already mentioned along with €7.581,67 interest from April 23, 2012. That is a debt of over a quarter of a million euros!
From that time it has a further five year imposition that would take it to April 2017.
I need an explanation of this in English. How much is owed, by whom and has it been paid?
The house is also described as a farm that has been 'reformed' as a dwelling.
Part of this was for livestock? If this was the case, how do we obtain full legal status of the dwelling as a dwelling since the reformation?
Finally, I need an assurance, in writing, that the discrepancies in floor space and area of the boundaries are in accordance with any local planning laws for the type of property described and there would not be future difficulties issuing from the local authorities.
In essence, I do not wish to inherit debts on the property. I do not wish to find that any of the reformation does not already meet existing planning and construction laws and is all fully paid for, if legal. I do not wish to discover that there are any confusions relating to inheritance because of the way the land has been parcelled up.
To make any head way with the sale all these would have to be 100% water tight and all relevant paperwork in place before February 02, 2014.
Many thanks."
So that's the state of play at the moment...
Such a shame. It's a good price for a slice of Spain but the horror stories make buyers wary, which is a no win situation for sellers and buyers.
Those levels of mistrust grind the whole system to a stagnant standstill.
Jan 13th 2014, 6:17 pm
#24
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Velez-Malaga
Posts: 4,942
Re: Moving to Raspay
The lawyer is slightly reticent in forwarding full translations of the documents. However, I had a go myself with the land registry using google translate. Not the most perfect way to proceed but following that here is my response to the lawyer.
"Hi,
I appreciate you would not be able to translate everything but there was a lot of information to retain and process from the telephone conversation.
I am still confused how the owner will satisfy a €284.282,37 imposition with the sale price of €44.000 for the house, less what commission is paid to the agents arranging the sale?
Also the 'land registry' indicates that from February 11, 2009 there is a four year period for settlement of debts amounting to €546. That was last April. Was that debt paid?
Then the whole estate is encumbered with the huge debt already mentioned along with €7.581,67 interest from April 23, 2012. That is a debt of over a quarter of a million euros!
From that time it has a further five year imposition that would take it to April 2017.
I need an explanation of this in English. How much is owed, by whom and has it been paid?
The house is also described as a farm that has been 'reformed' as a dwelling.
Part of this was for livestock? If this was the case, how do we obtain full legal status of the dwelling as a dwelling since the reformation?
Finally, I need an assurance, in writing, that the discrepancies in floor space and area of the boundaries are in accordance with any local planning laws for the type of property described and there would not be future difficulties issuing from the local authorities.
In essence, I do not wish to inherit debts on the property. I do not wish to find that any of the reformation does not already meet existing planning and construction laws and is all fully paid for, if legal. I do not wish to discover that there are any confusions relating to inheritance because of the way the land has been parcelled up.
To make any head way with the sale all these would have to be 100% water tight and all relevant paperwork in place before February 02, 2014.
Many thanks."
So that's the state of play at the moment...
Such a shame. It's a good price for a slice of Spain but the horror stories make buyers wary, which is a no win situation for sellers and buyers.
Those levels of mistrust grind the whole system to a stagnant standstill.
"Hi,
I appreciate you would not be able to translate everything but there was a lot of information to retain and process from the telephone conversation.
I am still confused how the owner will satisfy a €284.282,37 imposition with the sale price of €44.000 for the house, less what commission is paid to the agents arranging the sale?
Also the 'land registry' indicates that from February 11, 2009 there is a four year period for settlement of debts amounting to €546. That was last April. Was that debt paid?
Then the whole estate is encumbered with the huge debt already mentioned along with €7.581,67 interest from April 23, 2012. That is a debt of over a quarter of a million euros!
From that time it has a further five year imposition that would take it to April 2017.
I need an explanation of this in English. How much is owed, by whom and has it been paid?
The house is also described as a farm that has been 'reformed' as a dwelling.
Part of this was for livestock? If this was the case, how do we obtain full legal status of the dwelling as a dwelling since the reformation?
Finally, I need an assurance, in writing, that the discrepancies in floor space and area of the boundaries are in accordance with any local planning laws for the type of property described and there would not be future difficulties issuing from the local authorities.
In essence, I do not wish to inherit debts on the property. I do not wish to find that any of the reformation does not already meet existing planning and construction laws and is all fully paid for, if legal. I do not wish to discover that there are any confusions relating to inheritance because of the way the land has been parcelled up.
To make any head way with the sale all these would have to be 100% water tight and all relevant paperwork in place before February 02, 2014.
Many thanks."
So that's the state of play at the moment...
Such a shame. It's a good price for a slice of Spain but the horror stories make buyers wary, which is a no win situation for sellers and buyers.
Those levels of mistrust grind the whole system to a stagnant standstill.
Jan 13th 2014, 7:15 pm
#25
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,548
Re: Moving to Raspay
I am surprised that with a debt of over 250,000 you are still talking about the size of the property does not match the escritura. What did I say to you last week? If your lawyer tries to fob you off, WALK AWAY. Ray, is this a wind-up? Are you still seriously contemplating buying this debt ridden house? This seems to me a ploy to get some money out of an unsuspecting Brit, i.e. you. Do you know what I would do this minute? Get on your phone to your agent and ask him some questions. I keep telling you this. Did your agent tell you about this debt before you paid a deposit? If not get your deposit back. Ask your lawyer how the ‘owner’ can service the debt from the house sale, as he told you the ‘owner’ would. Your agent says the very same words ‘The payment that you make to the owner will be the price of the house less the money owed for any debts which will be retained by Axxxxx and used to pay any outstanding monies, this will guarantee that everything is paid.’ Ask him how? Do it now.
Ray, you must know this is impossible.
Ray, you must know this is impossible.
Jan 13th 2014, 9:01 pm
#26
Banned
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Living in a good place
Posts: 8,824
Re: Moving to Raspay
I would get on the phone and tell the agent to eff off. Plenty of legal houses....lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.
Jan 14th 2014, 6:14 am
#27
Retired and loving it!
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Ontinyent - Valencia region (campo)
Posts: 5,163
Re: Moving to Raspay
Please walk away - now!
From the old song; "There may be trouble ahead ...."
From the old song; "There may be trouble ahead ...."
Jan 14th 2014, 6:06 pm
#28
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Re: Moving to Raspay
response from lawyer....
There is no longer any debt on the house it has all been paid. The owner paid everything months ago but didn´t take the deeds to the land registry to stamp the cancellation, now the land registry has to certify this, that is all, the house has no debt. When you sign for the house there will not exist any debt.
The house has always been a house and never a farm. Yes, the property has been reformed and I will take a certificate of no infraction from the town hall to ensure that there is no legal problem with the reformation. In the case that an owner reforms a property without project or license then after 4 years the property becomes legal anyway. In this case the reform was done more than 4 years ago and without planning consent then the town of Yecla can’t do anything about it now, they must provide the necessary certificates.
I cannot give any written guarantee regarding the build size and boundaries, I can provide the certificates from the town hall saying that they are okay with the house. There cannot be any issues with inheritance on the property from a previous owner once you own the house. I can try to have all of the paperwork required in place for the 2nd February but I cannot say 100% as I need to obtain documents from different offices and I can’t say how long I will have to wait for them. You will be here the 19th February so I have a little more time to have everything ready. You will have the same problem with any country property that you wish to buy in Spain. These problems are inherent and we can try as far as is possible to ensure that the paperwork is in good order for sale but we have to work within the limitations of the government offices.
I understand that you are concerned for buying a property in another country without understanding fully the legal implications and the language. I am here to represent you and make sure as far as is possible to buy a house with the paperwork in good order and with no future implications to you.
Does this sound more 'kosher?'
There is no longer any debt on the house it has all been paid. The owner paid everything months ago but didn´t take the deeds to the land registry to stamp the cancellation, now the land registry has to certify this, that is all, the house has no debt. When you sign for the house there will not exist any debt.
The house has always been a house and never a farm. Yes, the property has been reformed and I will take a certificate of no infraction from the town hall to ensure that there is no legal problem with the reformation. In the case that an owner reforms a property without project or license then after 4 years the property becomes legal anyway. In this case the reform was done more than 4 years ago and without planning consent then the town of Yecla can’t do anything about it now, they must provide the necessary certificates.
I cannot give any written guarantee regarding the build size and boundaries, I can provide the certificates from the town hall saying that they are okay with the house. There cannot be any issues with inheritance on the property from a previous owner once you own the house. I can try to have all of the paperwork required in place for the 2nd February but I cannot say 100% as I need to obtain documents from different offices and I can’t say how long I will have to wait for them. You will be here the 19th February so I have a little more time to have everything ready. You will have the same problem with any country property that you wish to buy in Spain. These problems are inherent and we can try as far as is possible to ensure that the paperwork is in good order for sale but we have to work within the limitations of the government offices.
I understand that you are concerned for buying a property in another country without understanding fully the legal implications and the language. I am here to represent you and make sure as far as is possible to buy a house with the paperwork in good order and with no future implications to you.
Does this sound more 'kosher?'
Jan 14th 2014, 6:43 pm
#29
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,548
Re: Moving to Raspay
Your lawyer has contradicted himself. At best you will buy a property that could, no matter what your lawyer says, one day receive a visit from Yecla Town Hall. At worst, you will be responsible for a massive debt. What do you think you should do?
