Michel Thomas
 

I'm on the point of despair!

I am having too many senior moments I know but why oh why am I not a fluent Spanish speaker after the 10 to 11 hours listening to Mr T and the bright young woman and at times unbelievably slow young man.:confused:

Didn't do too bad until about lesson 6 but it was downhill all the way after that. How on earth could anyone of normal intelligence take it all in in the time Mr T says. When he gets to "I call it the w.ing tense" my wife and I just looked at each other with that "it can't be me, can it" stare that we last got listening to a Best of Prince album.:o

So, for anyone out there attempting to learn Spanish with Mr T or any other contender - here's confirmation - you are not thick (or!):frown:

p.s. for those who think I seriously expected to learn in 10 or 11 hours - no I never did. At this rate though maybe I misheard and he meant years.:huh:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

no comment;)


actually I will

I have more problems with students who have used those tapes than with any others


so many bad habits to break & misunderstandings to correct!!

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I've used the Thomas tapes along with various other teach yourself books and discs.
He certainly has some rather odd methods but I think that the main thing with his tapes/discs are that he gives you confidence to use the little that you know, well he did with me. You'll probably speak Spanish unlike any Spaniard but you will be understood. The problem comes when the Spaniard responds to you as he can't teach you to understand what is said to you, if that makes sense?

Re: Michel Thomas
 

He sent me to sleep. :D
You`re right, for every question you need to ask, you need to learn at least two answers. ;);)

Re: Michel Thomas
 

My husband swears by him ... I, on the other hand, swear at him, and find him hard to understand even when he is speaking in English!

Re: Michel Thomas
 

a woman after my own heart:)

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I tried night school in the UK, classes in Spain, tapes and CDs galore, text books by the dozen, etc and finally gave up.

Having given up, I still persisted going into Spanish places and watching Spanish TV and suddenly realised, much to my surprise, that I could speak and understand the language at quite a good level. I've got the Spanish news on now and understand most of it, especially the heat wave warning for tomorrow.

I don't know when the turning point came, it sort of crept up on me, but it did take a while.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I look forward to that day. In fact I'm thinking of knocking Castillian Spanish on the head and concentrating on Catalan/Valenciano. It might serve me better.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

To be honest, were I going to a catalan area, I'd focus on that first, with a bit of Spanish as backup.

For me, very few tapes or CDs have ever proven worth the money.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

There are plenty of teach yourself Catalan courses but I haven't found one for Valenciano. How different are they? Is it a case of a slightly different way of pronouncing things or is it more than that. ie. If I spoke Catalan in Valencia would I be understood?

Re: Michel Thomas
 

We will hopefully be visiting Els Poblets quite soon for just over 8 weeks and will try to avoid speaking to all the Germans who Mitzyboy says live there (kidding). We will continue with Mr T until we go and take the discs with us for more work in the day when not out and about.

Hopefully we will find a few Spaniards to speak to or at least attempt to reply to when spoken to. We will also try TV.

For extra punishment may also take the Linguaphone discs too.

As we will not be moving to Spain for more than a few months at a time this is the best we can do. No Spanish classes available locally I'm afraid.

Still, keeps the brain active - even if only in a confused state:confused:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

In all honesty, I don't know. Catalan is an interesting mix (to me) of Italian and Spanish. If you read the history of the area you will see why.

How it varies from Valencian I don't know, but if asked to guess I'd assume dialectic drift as the language moved away from its core location.

The standing joke is that a language is a dialect with an army.

Read up on the subject and see just how much it varies, and whether or not it will merit the effort you will have to put into it. Catalan is IMO well worth learning in its heartland, but whether it would be worth bothering with in Valencia, only you can decide. I'd think that Valenciano in Valencia would be worth less than Calalan in Catalunya.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I found El Jueves a great help. It's a funny, slightly vulgar mag that takes the p*ss out of almost everything, and has articles and comic strips that range from easy to more advanced.

It's particularly useful for 'street Spanish' and more colloquial expressions.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

if you're planning to stay in the area all well & good


a lot of Brits do find Valenciano easier to learn than Castellano

Re: Michel Thomas
 

We have a place very near Els Poblets and although the Spaniards certainly speak Valenciano among themselves, it seems that any attempt by an English person to speak Spanish is well-received, and they will either reply in English or Castilian Spanish in my experience

Re: Michel Thomas
 

there are great similarities with Valenciano & Catalan - so much so that my older dd, who studies entirely in Valenciano, had a set reading book last year which was written in Catalan

there were differences, which at the time she said threw her - but in the end didn't really cause problems


sometimes if I'm struggling with something in Valenciano I'll use a Catalan online translator - with a bit of imagination you can work things out

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Catalan and Valenciano are very similar and will serve you well in Catalunia and northern Valencia, but you will not be understood in the rest of Spain, whereas Castellano is spoken throughout the country.

For historical reasons, I think, using Catalan or Valenciano in some parts of Spain can cause annoyance, even in the southern part of Valencia.

The Guardia Civil, in particular, resent the use of Valenciano (or Catalan) in most areas, but I don't really know why. Something to do with the Monarchy? Or Franco?

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=HBG;8804640]Catalan and Valenciano are very similar and will serve you well in Catalunia and northern Valencia, but you will not be understood in the rest of Spain, whereas Castellano is spoken throughout the country.

I get the impression that in Javea, in southern Valencia, Valenciano is the first language amoungst the locals.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=lynnxa;8804510]there are great similarities with Valenciano & Catalan - so much so that my older dd, who studies entirely in Valenciano, had a set reading book last year which was written in Catalan

there were differences, which at the time she said threw her - but in the end didn't really cause problems

Does that mean that the only way to learn Valenciano is with local tuition rather than a teach yourself Catalan?

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=raddickle;8804659]I don't think it's a good idea to try to teach yourself any language!!!



if you mean are there any courses online - I don't think so - & I have yet to find a comprehensive online translator for Valenciano

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=lynnxa;8804665][QUOTE=raddickle;8804659]

I don't think it's a good idea to try to teach yourself any language!!!


I totally agree but until I can commit the time to learning with a tutor I think it's a good idea to have a background knowledge, particularly when it comes to grammar. It's the main problem I have with Castellano. I can speak a lot more than I can understand which would not be the case if I had been taught by a tutor.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=lynnxa;8804665]I taught myself!

Well, I've done 6 weeks in total of Spanish lessons, but apart from that have taught myself.

Depends if you are used to learning things. If you can learn maths or physics from a book, then you can learn a language too, especially if you live in the country. If you are not used to learning then yes, get a good teacher.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=raddickle;8804653]Sorry, I consider Denia and Javea as the northern part, but should have said of the Alicante province of Valencia.

When I lived there, I usually found that the locals only lapse into Valenciano when they want to exclude expats from the conversation.

They came unstuck with us because my interpreter wife learned her Spanish (Castellano) in Barcelona, and has a fair knowledge of Catalan too.

But she has come unstuck several times when translating at the Guardia Civil (farther south) and inadvertently lapsing into Catalan. They get very annoyed.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

you're doing OK then

most people understand more than they can speak when they start - it will all come together in the end!




why do you think Valenciano would be easier ?

Re: Michel Thomas
 

[QUOTE=cricketman;8804690]yes, but there's a big difference in learning a language solely from books & a mixture of self-study & daily exposure

with a language you need to be able to hear it & have someone else hear you - you might think you're saying right, but be totally getting it wrong!!

I've learned - am still learning - & always will be I reckon - from a mixture of lessons, self-study & daily exposure

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I agree, I cannot see any point in learning Valenciano unless you are already fluent in Castellano and have time on your hands. Ive lived just outside Valencia city for 10 years and know nobody who uses it in business and in commerce or for instance in announcements at the airport etc. Here pupils are taught in castellano with a one hour per week lesson in Valenciano Newspapers are in Castellano. Instructions are Castellano. There are little enclaves where it is spoken but Castellon is the universal language of Spain.

Nobody would advise an immigrant to the UK to learn only Welsh as is completely useless for everyday living and working in the UK.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

yep, definitely northern CB


my daughters love butting in when people are speaking Valenciano, too:rofl:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Lots of people say that and for some it is true - I know people who can do this - I just don't understand how!

When people speak to me in Spanish they use words I don't know, tenses I'm not familiar with and grammar that confuses me.

When I speak Spanish I do none of those things. I can easily get round vocab I don't know and tenses and grammar constructs aren't so important, you can get by quite well using compound tenses for instance.

How on earth can it be easier to understand than to speak? :confused:

I wish I knew because the people who can do this have a definite advantage - they tend to pick it all up a lot quicker. I've known people who can get by in conversation after only a few weeks. The disadvantage is that they speak a lot of dreadful Spanish and don't seem inclined to do anything about it.

I converse every day in Spanish, I just wish I could understand better.:(

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I don't. I think it would useful if wanting to integrate with the locals. However didn't you say that a lot of Brits find it easier than Castellano?
Fronm the little that I've seen of Catalan/Valenciano there seems to be a French influence which a lot of Brits have a passing knowledge of.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

yes, I think that's why - the French influence


as far as integrating I don't think you need to worry about yet another language


yes, it helps to be able to read Valenciano - I can - especially if you have kids in the state schools, but as far as speaking it I really don't think it would make that much difference in Javea - it's such a mix of people from all over Spain

Castellano is definitely the way to go - not everyone in Javea speaks Valenciano - even locals - some of the pijos actually look down on those that do

now if you were in Gata........................:blink:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Well, when I'm in the lucky position to spend a bit more time out there I'll come to you for lessons in both!

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I wouldn't dream of attempting to teach Valenciano!!!


I could teach you maths from a Valenciano text book though:lol:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I think it was Steven Fry who said of someone that he could speak 5 languages and read another 4.

Understanding the written word is ten times easier than the spoken, speaking isn't too bad when you have a bit of vocabulary, but as said here the bu**er is when people use words and constructions that you don't know.

I think it's because the brain is struggling to process all the words coming in, and so it makes intelligent guesses as to what is coming next. Of course, in a foreign language it ha sless to make guess with.

It does the same with thrown objects, as it doesn't have the time to plot the curve frame by frame, so it makes a best guess at where the ball will end up, and then backfills the details.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

The good news is that Spanish has an incredibly logical system of grammar and very simple pronunciation rules making it easy to speak and understand.

It is complicated yes, there are over 50 versions of each verb, but it can be learnt somewhat like a mathematical algorithm and there are not that many exceptions (compared to English) of how the verbs are conjugated.

In terms of understanding, it just takes time. A big thing is to watch Spanish TV at home, that helps me no end. You have to pay attention to understand otherwise you have one boring evening!

Re: Michel Thomas
 

You will have an even more boring evening if you understand.:rofl:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Agreed - unless you live in Andalucia.

:rofl:

Re: Michel Thomas
 

What are you lot on about??????

I thought the thread was about the actor in Starsky and Hutch.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

I agree. 'El Jueves' Which calls itself 'the mag which comes out on wednesdays' is great fun, and informative in an anarchstic way. I can see why bil reads it!;-)

You have really to want to learn language. You have to listen actively and you have to be prepared to be wrong, but have a go anyway. My husband never got that. Maybe it's his fault or
maybe it's Michael Thomas' fault that he's unemployed;-) They say (in our village) that when he does speak, his Spanish is better than mine, But that's hardly any comfort when we're scrabbling for pennies just because my husband doesn't have the confidence to 'put himself out there'. There's loads of work in his area...after all most Spanish websites are S***t.
We laughed at other people who moved to Spain without learning the language. Now we're suffering from the same thing.

Back to the point.
I started to learn with the Linkword method which makes you feel that you're learning right from the beginning. Then I did classes, But by far the best method is to discipline yourself to breakfast daily in front of CNN+ (or any other repetitive news channel). Like OP says. It "just sort of creeps up on you" that you're understanding more than you ever realised. But you have to have the confidence to try it out. Don't duck back into pointing and using English just when it gets uncomfortable.
That's what my husband does and it's now habitual. It really holds you back.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Ahh yes. 'dichos'. The people round here are so friendly and excitable they just babble back at you. I felt a real fool until I realised that most of them speak almost entirely in 'dichos', Local sayings. Compounded by the fact that they chew up their consonants and spit out a stream of 'vocales'.
You just nead to practise telling them (nicely) that although you speak a little Spanish you don't understand the local 'dichos'. (El sentido de las palabras...si que entiendo. Pero los dichos me cuestan) Or summat like that:-) My experience with this is that they laugh, agree with you and carry on in the same way. But at least they understand when you look at them blankly, and some of them will try again.

Re: Michel Thomas
 

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. What I loved was after the judges had tried to have all the copies siezed and destroyed after the front cover that took the p*ss out of the crown prince and his wife, the mag altered the cover from 'Thursday. The magazine that comes out on Wednesday.' to 'Thursday. The magazine they confiscate on Friday!'


As for the learning process, I know I am kind of anal about grammar, but learning it really, really helps you to clear up some of the apparant confusion.

Also, it's a good idea to understand very clearly what the verb tenses actually mean, so you know what you are trying to say.

For example, the three common past tenses, the perfect, imperfect and preterit all mean very different things. The preterit is mostly for a single event in the past. The imperfect for repeated events in the past and the perfect for events in the past that may be repeated in the future.

ie Preterit. I ate at Joe's.
imperfect I used to eat at Joe's
perfect I have eaten at joe's