dave7777

I suspect their priority is citizens living in the UK, rightly or wrongly. It was our choice to leave the UK,

Sorry that's laughable, under the WA (which we keep being told equates to international law) its the EU commissions responsibility.
Isn't a trade agreement what both sides wanted after Brexit?
Were you expecting the UK to stay in the EEA? Neither Cons or Lab are suggesting that's a possibility, anytime soon

DLC

It was, but I'm not sure how many other countries would exclude a great many of their own citizens from a referendum which directly affects them because they actually live there.

There are 27 versions of the WA plus the UK's version, every country is responsible for its own implementation of the WA.

Both sides wanted a trade agreement, but restricting it to little more than that is avoiding the difficult problems that inevitably crop up. Witness the driving licence nonsense repeated over how many countries.

Given that so much mention was made of Norway and Switzerland, voters would have been forgiven for thinking the EEA was a distinct possiblity, but the Brexit referendum turned into a blank cheque for whichever government managed to get it through.

There are many ways to skin a cat, as I said in a previous post a joint organisation on citizens rights could have been set up, similar to NI. I suppose the UK couldn't get out of its responsibilities in NI because the US was in the background waving a big stick, but it made great efforts to avoid them elsewhere.

dave7777

So, I am guessing you mean people who couldn't vote in 2016 due to time limits? It hardly effected them. if they have lived in the EU so long .,has it? if it has, Id love to know in what ways, surely they should have already had residency and exchanged their driving licence etc if someone has lived here so long? It effected people living in the UK much more.
That doesn't really matter how many WA's there are, the overall responsibility of respecting UK citizens rights in the EU, is the EU commissions.
Do you honesty think things like driving licence exchange was high on the UK govt. to do list? Of course it wasn't A trade deal was.

Red Eric

One of the things probably worth bearing in mind is that 2 different approaches were taken to acknowledgement of rights under the WA. One, adopted by Spain, Portugal and totalling about half of the EU member states, was the "declaratory" system, which meant not having to do anything with regard to status and existing residence docs being accepted post-Brexit (although eventually exchangeable for another affirming WA protection status). The other "constitutive" system involved having to acquire the new status by a deadline date, regardless of any existing residence documentation with failure to do so involving loss of status and rights. This was the method adopted by the other half of the EU states and by the UK.

So some people, in the UK and in the EU countries operating the same approach, may have been perfectly compliant all the time they resided there and a failure / oversight / misundersanding / negligence (call it what you will) on their part will have left them being considered without residence or other rights and liable to being ordered to leave.

I'm not sure why you think it affected people living in the UK more - could you explain that one a bit further?

dave7777

Because they are living with it, rightly or wrongly, and been told everyday what a disaster it is .People here already resident only had to apply to a scheme, as did EU citizens in the UK. Apart from that, it only affect people here minimally. If someone was already resident in the EU, then what has changed? The only people if affected is second home owners etc, who would be resident in the UK. so could vote. Apart from those people, and people who should have registered already but didn't for whatever reason, but largely that's their own fault.
I moved here, since Brexit, i am a dual national, i registered for residency, didn't just not bother as it seems a few Brits decided to do.

Red Eric

Nothing has changed for many except, possibly, their status.

"Only" having to apply for a scheme is all well and good for those who've managed it and done so without a hitch. There are multiple reasons why some may not have, not all of which might immediately enter into our heads. As it happens - as I just mentioned above - applications or lack of them in countries such as Spain and Portugal don't affect one's legal status in half the countries in the EU, although proving the holding of that status might become more difficult with the passage of time. However, it's the other half and the UK where the worst problems potentially lie.

I'm with BritinEurope that we should be treating all cases on either side with equal consideration for the facts and that where problems arise there ought to be easily accessible arbitration routes before the ultimate sanctions are applied.

dave7777

As i mentioned before, the rules on residency in the EU are down to the EU ( or the individual states) I don't see how the UK govt can be called out on it. Its not their responsibility. For certain if problems occur with EU citizens residency in the UK, they can be. I guess where we disagree is that you have sympathy with brits who lived in the EU for years and flew under the radar, never bothering , for whatever reason to get residency, especially here in Spain If they had played by the rules in the majority of cases there shouldn't have been any problem.

bobd22

100% agree with you last point .

Red Eric

No, that's not what I've said.

I have pointed out that in Spain, Portugal and all those other countries that operate the same system, there are less likely to be problems of administrative omissions that result in expulsion orders. I haven't said - or implied - that I have any sympathy for anybody wilfully and knowingly flouting any rules if they get pulled up for it. All I have mentioned previously on the matter is that in this group of countries, from a legal standpoint, lack of a residence document alone is not sufficient grounds for expulsion, even now (and I am reasonably confident that that is what would prevail in my country of residence - Portugal - should it be put to the test ever). There was a thread about Spain not having expelled any Brits where this was discussed to some extent and nowhere on the thread did anybody point to any reliable source which contradicted that. Can I also just stress here that even here, not holding a current residence document is not necessarily equivalent to "flying under the radar".

The other group of countries - where in some cases we're seeing substantial numbers of expulsions - potentially concerns people who definitely did not "fly under the radar", since, post-Brexit, they lose their status unless they applied for, and were issued with, a new document. This means there could be people who have lived in these countries for some time, fully compliant with all their obligations and holding pre-Brexit residence documents, but for lack of a new document can be removed (just as applies in the UK, incidentally). That is definitely of concern, particularly if there is no leeway being shown. Note the title, from the newspaper headline, which includes the word "vulnerable". Bear in mind that some people, now and probably more so in years to come, may be not currently in a position to understand their status or the implications on it of the application of these rules in their particular case.

bobd22

That's true but some could have been living in Spain or Portugal or elsewhere when they could understand the rules and chose ignore them for their own reasons. Those people may now due to age and technology etc not understand new rules or be able to sort things out online or have funds to pay someone to do it for them. Everyone has different circumstances not all are or have been "under the radar" it seems many were pre brexit probably less now. You are right there should be some department that can help and ensure the agreements made are being followed and assistance given to those with genuine difficulties.

DLC

If they had residency they're tied to that country. So people who are cross border workers (mainly living in Benelux), people who had plans to move to another EU country (perhaps after finishing studying, looking for a new job, or retiring), people who want to move and with their partners in the UK, people who wanted to move temporarily to the UK to study or support their parents then move back...

I'm sure you mean for the better, right?

It's probably the ECJ's when all's said and done.

If it were a fantastic deal then maybe that would be some consolation, but...

UK factories blame 16th month in a row of falling exports on Brexit barriers

Ford, Vauxhall owner and JLR call for UK to renegotiate Brexit deal

Probably a bit of a cheeky observation, but if you weren't a dual national and wanted to move to the EU after Brexit would you think it were such a good idea?

dave7777

Sorry, I don’t understand your point, I didn’t just get dual nationality since Brexit to move to the EU.Ive always been one. So it had no bearing on what I voted. In the context of this thread what I think about Brexit isn’t important.
Yes I voted to leave, has it been as promised ? No, for a multitude of reasons. On both sides. But given a chance I’d still vote leave again, I think in the long term it will prove right, if it’s given a real chance, but that’s my opinion, I’m sure you have a different one, which is your right.
I’ve said it before on here, FOM outward especially of people isn’t a concern for the majority of UK voters. A small percentage ever used their past FOM. But FOM inward is a concern.

spainrico

I actually find this article very confusing because in my book (which could of course be wrong)

Residency - (pre-Brexit) was an EU right and if you followed the application process was a given

Citizenship of Spain was available to those who had legally lived as residents for 10 years and applied for it and passed all the criteria (exams etc) and received a Spanish DNI and passport.

So anybody with Citizenship cannot lose it!

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-...ourt-confirms/

bobd22

Way I read it is that they are referring to EU Citizens up to Brexit that included UK citizens as the UK was part of the EU. I don't think the article has anything to with invidual countries citizenship if one has that then surely no change. So for UK FOM was because we were a UK citizen not necessarily a citizen of our adopted country of residence more usual for that to have just official residency certificate under EU rules. Obviously after brexit much has changed unless resident pre brexit and therefore protected under the WA. That's how I read it I may be wrong.

spainrico

Yes, I think you are right - I saw the headline and thought what the hell....especially as a friend of mine has just been to swear her oath for her Spanish citizenship!

I am sticking with residency - it's adequate for me (and I hate exams!)