spainrico

Lords urge Braverman to protect rights of vulnerable British citizens in the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other

Listen Very Carefully

From the French point of view any problems that UK citizens are having in France usually relate to not applying for the withdrawal ID card within the specified timescales(despite a good publicity campaign by the French govt) or not being able to show that they were full time residents because they have not done the basics in the past such as submitting tax returns,working on the black or generally pulling strokes such as not having proper medical cover,not registering their cars, not paying their property taxes etc. I am sure that expats throughout the EU will know of these type of people.
That said I am sure that there are people who are being hard done by and where there are exceptional circs the UK should be giving some help and advice

DLC

Thr equivalent of the Independent Monitoring Authority (supporting EU/EEA citizens in the UK and Gibraltar) is British in Europe, a NGO. The UK government cut funding for it so it had to be almost completely wound down a year and a half ago so the HoL Committee already has its answer.

BritinEurope

That is simply untrue. British in Europe was a volunteer group that represented UK nationals in Europe. I don't think it was ever supported by the UK government. It lost funding because nobody would fund it. For various and obvious reasons of prejudice, neither the typical Brexiter nor the typical Remainer has much sympathy for Brits in Europe.

The Independent Monitoring Authority (IMA) is a independent agency founded as part of the Withdrawal Agreement. The Withdrawal Agreement specifies the European Commission as playing the same role for UK citizens in Europe as the IMA does for EU citizens in the UK.

The IMA has been energetic in its task. This has included a lot of outreach and soliciting of complaints/views. It is well resourced and can and does pursue court action against the UK.

The European Commission has been asleep in comparison. The team responsible for the Withdrawal Agreement in tiny in comparison with the IMA despite having 27 different implementations of the Withdrawal Agreement, affecting ~one million people, to monitor. The monitoring body hasn't even collected the most basic of statistics on residence protections for over half of the Brits in Europe eg how many were protected, which fraction were rejected etc. ? This is like monitoring unemployment without knowing how many people were unemployed or where the unemployment hotspots are.

Furthermore, as a body representing the EU countries, it is not independent as the IMA is. Indeed, the Lords commented that it is in a position of marking its own homework.

The failure of the Commission in its monitoring role is one of the factors behind the Lords' concerns.

Google the IMA ...

BritinEurope

And therein lies the problem when it comes to any discussion of problems that Brits in Europe may have with their residence protections.

A bit of dismissive prejudice (the majority who have problems must be playing the system) followed by a call for the UK to do something if need be for the others.

Any proper evidence for your prejudice ?

BTW - it's not the UK's job to step in. If people are being unfairly hard done by, it's down to the French government and the European Commission that is monitoring the implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement in France.

bobd22

While not all problems are down to people playing the system. Early in the post brexit days and end of the transition period there were quite a few who had been playing the system in Spain caught out. People had been living under the radar for their own reasons when they had been given sufficient notice that they needed to legalise their position by obtaining residency. I would guess France as has been said was similar. Some did obtain the required residency some I guess decided not to and returned to UK to live and some will probably still be under the radar but don't leave Spain or France for fear of the passport stamp. That of course is their choice and up to authorities to get to grips with them. I agree there are other people facing very different issues with the system such as people with holiday homes and the Schengen rules preventing them using the holiday home as they had planned. Personally having bothered to be legal with residency tax and everything else I have no sympathy for those that choose to ignore the rules. I do have sympathy with those now not allowed to use their holiday home as they planned when buying it and others affected by the loss of freedom of movement that many of us took advantage of. I am also grateful that my personal position is protected by the withdrawal agreement.

BritinEurope

I've also heard the stories. What I haven't seen is evidence that they are the people mostly having problems.

One can also say the same thing about EU citizens in the UK. I've heard a lot of stories of people working under the radar. However, It's not the first thing I think of when I consider protections for EU citizens in the UK.

This the fundamental problem. When it comes to Brits, it's dismissive prejudice first. When it comes to EU citizens, it's not. This has been a problem from 2016 onwards and goes some way to explaining why there is so little interest in what happens to us compared to EU citizens in the UK. I've always taken the point of view that the Brit in Lyon is neither more nor less important than the Pole in Manchester when it comes to residence protections. This view isn't widely shared.

The problem is compounded by the EU states introducing a far tougher set of measures than the UK and a monitoring authority (the Commission) that has been largely asleep on the job. The UK turns EU citizens down for criminality and being out of the country too long. The EU states turn people down if they've lost their job at the wrong time or have too low an income. This is a serious and complicated asymmetry and requires a scrutiny that has been absent.

bobd22

I don't think they are the ones having the main problems now. You say the stories? I'm sure many reading will certainly know of people who were under the radar pre brexit. Certainly I knew of people who openly bragged about it. Problem is being under the radar there is no official number of those that were affected by not being in a legal position in Spain once the cut off came. I don't deny that there are other issues with what was agreed in UK leaving the EU. People who decide not to follow the correct and lawful process for residency either in the EU or in the UK must accept the consequences if found out. Certainly from the out vote up to end of transition people in that situation had the opportunity to legalise their position and here in Spain it really wasn't difficult.

BritinEurope

Yes - stories, anecdotes. We've all heard them. They are the first thing you think of when you think of Brits in the EU having difficulties yet you have no idea of the true scale. The Brit bragging about living under the radar gets talked about a lot more than the Brit who refused residence because they forgot to register with the unemployment agency in time after losing their job. 'Not denying' that there are problems affecting 'deserving' people is akin to them being an afterthought. This is the problem when it comes to how Brits in the EU are perceived. It always has been and it always will be.

Also, in practice, it can be quite difficult to distinguish the 'deserving' from the 'undeserving'. A low reported income can be attempt to deceive the taxman or can just be a low income, yet both can cause residence problems. The Brit missing the deadline may have been trying to avoid the authorities in earlier years or have misunderstood what was required from the web info (I've seen a lot of those - deportation is one hell of a punishment). To protect those who should be protected also means letting some you don't want remain. This is the unavoidable choice to be made. The UK's approach was to protect all EU citizens who were resident without a serious criminal record as long as they applied for Settled Status. This is not the same thing as letting people continue to hide under the radar. The EU has not done likewise. This is a pity, not least since there is no effective monitoring by the Commission of what is going on in the 27 different implementations of the Withdrawal Agreement. There is also not a great deal of interest among those who normally shout loudest about matters such as residence protections.

VEDShappy

From The Guardian 25th May.

"In relation to EU citizens in the UK, the committee pointed out that there was still a backlog of 181,000 EU citizens waiting for a decision on their applications for settled status.

Peers told Braverman they heard applicants were being left in limbo, unable to apply for a provisional driving licence, get an EHIC card for holiday health insurance in the EU or access social rights.

They told Braverman that in some cases EU citizens were being advised not to travel out of the country while decisions were pending, making them “effectively imprisoned in the UK”."

bobd22

If you know the true scale of numbers of British citizens deported from Spain post brexit maybe you could give the numbers? Personally I have no knowledge of how UK citizens working in Spain are affected time limits between jobs etc. I moved to Spain to live for retirement I can only speak of my experience and treatment of myself by the Spanish/EU system. Everyone has differing circumstances.

BritinEurope

Why on earth should I know the numbers ? That's the job of the monitoring body, the European Commission.
The UK has released detailed sets of statistics on applications for Settled Status and the Independent Monitoring Authority responds to these. The EU states and the Commission don't do likewise. You wouldn't study unemployment by relying on anecdote, nor should you do so with citizens' rights.

BritinEurope

Out of 6million applications there will be a backlog - 3% of those who applied.
You think there aren't backlogs for UK citizens in the EU ?
It's standard stuff to tell people who are waiting on applications to be careful about leaving the country. This is the case for the EU and the UK. It also needs to be explained who gave the warning not to leave the country. Furthermore, you need to look for the pea under the thimble. A lot of people applied late (and are waved through, something that isn't happening for UK nationals in the EU). A late application will show up in a backlog now even if it was submitted recently. Also, many EU citizens came after the deadline as a result of family unification rights. They apply when they get to the UK. They will also show up in the 'backlog'.

If you want to play whataboutery, do it properly with a decent argument.

If you want to compare EU and UK roll outs of citizens' rights protections, you'll find that (1) the UK did it far earlier, protecting citizens against no deal (2) the terms of residence are far more generous than those in the EU implementations of the Withdrawal Agreement. Settled Status is more generous than the EU law that preceded it.

VEDShappy

Bit prickly this morning aren't we?

Quick to throw allegations of prejudice, but no evidence to substantiate it. Could it just be one of the stories you've heard?

What about alleged problems with declared incomes? If the declared income doesn't meet the requirement then that's that surely. Any manipulation or adjustment, for whatever reason, would surely be akin to treating the Brit in Lyon differently to the Pole in Manchester.
Similarly, it's rather misleading to say that British in Europe has lost it's funding when it's front page clearly states that it's received funding from the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust.

BritinEurope

I haven't much followed this argument since 2019. It's interesting how things haven't changed.

Under no circumstances will anyone put issues affecting Brits as a joint priority.

Back in 2019, it was no deal Brexit that was the concern. EU citizens could get Settled Status even then and Brits were reliant on a range of incomplete protections that were basically just promises (nothing to apply for) and were based on a demonstrable lie (the EU can't legislate for third country national residence status despite the fact that it does just this). There were also a lot of lies told about Settled Status which was unfortunate as it was clear that this is an extremely generous scheme. However, the idea that the EU and its residence protections could be criticised was intolerable.

Still the same now. The tactics to accomplish this are either dismissive prejudice (affected Brits are under the radar) or whataboutery (though the 'Settled Status is rubbish' narrative is ebbing a bit; not even the 3million can find any EU citizen being thrown out who wasn't a criminal or simply not eligibly resident).

It took me quite a while to realise that my view - protect and worry about all citizens affected by Brexit regardless of nationality - is quite unusual.