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Old Jun 14th 2022, 2:57 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Jock1
Hi thanks for the reply, I’m intrigued by the good luck I think you’ll need some comment, what makes you think that ? Is it an issue with visas or an issue with the plan ? Obviously I’ve joined and posted to try and gain some knowledge from others experiences so would appreciate any further thoughts

For self employment and a B&B its a lot harder now than oh lets say 4 years ago.

We had originally planned to come here and do just what you have said.
A house with land for a B&B or 'glamping'.
I was going to stay in the Uk and continue to work and the wife and our son were going to run the 'business'.
My wife's father has lived here for around 20 years, so we already had contacts and were known in he local towns (we had been holidaying here 3 times a year since 2004) I'd helped out installing some machinery in a local factory while on holiday for my Uk employer.
Also my wife's father has owned and run hotels, my wife and son owned a cafe and we did B&B for a while when we were living on the UK south coast. So we had experience.
My wages from the Uk would have covered all of our general outgoings, I would have gone contract and spent 3 months of the year here in Spain helping and working.

We looked at properties, viewed an up and running B&B business in Altea, spoke with solicitors, estate agents, banks etc
You need licences for everything here in Spain, tourist licence, kitchen licence (if doing food), you will need hygiene certificates (if doing food), insurances etc.

Tourist licence requirements.
Read this...
https://advisorscostablanca.com/how-...ence-in-spain/

The land you have must be the correct type or you cannot build etc.
We looked at having a kitchen where the guests could pick the organic fruit and veg and make their own food (this would have been in with the cost of the rooms)
Selling produce here in a small town all depends on who you know and how much networking (greasing palms) you do, for this the local language is key. (we know the local Police chief and the Mayor) as both of them see me out in my weird car...

I spent nearly one full year making a plan, getting drawings of the rooms made, contacting the councils here for licence requirements, checking finances and then came to the conclusion that we might just about cover all costs if we were fortunate and we were going to do something unusual and had a possible audience of a couple of million people across the Uk and the EU to attract to the B&B. We had a plan that would have tapped into a good market, with reasonable returns, just not profit.

We changed plans and have a nice little 3 bed flat in a tiny village and I paint and draw (and I sell some of these) make and repair Jewellery and play with my Mini Moke.
We may explore the B&B again one day but Im still young (59) and having some well earned rest and fun at the moment..

Now horses for courses, my experience will be different to yours BUT.
We are just coming out of a world wide health issue, this alone has probably wiped a lot of the small B&B's out. It has round here, of the three we knew of, only one is still going and he runs a health and lifestyle retreat...
Large holiday destinations are recovering but they still have a way to go.
The town we live in, has a reasonable tourist trade, yet the hostel in the town has less than 20% trade at the moment and they were going to be one of our competitors (when we looked at doing this they were always fully booked Feb-April and Sept-Oct)

So that why I think you will need some luck.
We didn't have to provide a business plan, or any of the other stuff you will need to prove you can do this before you start with the hard work of actually running a business.

Also as it says in the visa paperwork.There must be evidence of sufficient funds to establish and maintain employment indefinitely.

But I do wish you luck but please do your research and then do some more, then take off 20% for bad weather etc, and if you still think its worth it.

Then go for it....

Oh if you want to do the "Golden Visa"
http://extranjeros.inclusion.gob.es/...tir-INGLES.pdf

Last edited by Barriej; Jun 14th 2022 at 3:08 am.
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 3:12 am
  #17  
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Remember weather!!!. Today inland Spain has temps of 40 and more. I would imagine its hell on earth in those places just now. God knows how you work in it!!
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 3:14 am
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Originally Posted by Ronnyone
You would need to present fairly well researched business plan which is why I suggest buying an existing business. You will also need to probably convince them that you have the resources ( money) skills ( agricultural experience) and language ( spanish). Without these you risk just sounding like someone with a dream and a vague plan!
Basically it will boil down to you showing you have a sizeable amount of money already that you are willing to invest in starting a business in Spain. That is why it is better to get the golden Visa. How much are you going to invest?

Even buying an established business wont make the visa process easier as you still have to demonstrate most of the requirements for the self employed visa anyway.
I have a friend in the Uk who was refused it even though he owns two flats in the Uk (rented). Two bars (managed by staff) and owns a bar in Benidorm (staffed).
He wanted to come out and open another (well buy one) in Altea and he was refused on grounds of not having recognised industry qualifications and that he wouldn't be employing locals (because he wanted to run it with his partner).....

Go figure eh!!

So next year he will be applying for the NLV instead after taking the 25% out of his personal pension....
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 3:49 am
  #19  
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As far as I know. If you wanted to run a small finca producing local produce you would need to show some background experience or qualifications ( horticulture or farming). You would also need to demonstrate sufficient funds to run the business which is separate from living costs ( ie money to buy a place).You would need a business plan to show projected earning and finally proof you have or are in the process of securing the property required. Extra information would relate to language skills and medical reports.
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 4:10 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Just joined

Originally Posted by Ronnyone
You would need to present fairly well researched business plan which is why I suggest buying an existing business. You will also need to probably convince them that you have the resources ( money) skills ( agricultural experience) and language ( spanish). Without these you risk just sounding like someone with a dream and a vague plan!
Basically it will boil down to you showing you have a sizeable amount of money already that you are willing to invest in starting a business in Spain. That is why it is better to get the golden Visa. How much are you going to invest?
hi, we’re below the level required for a golden visa and to be honest I’m not ready to hang up my work boots yet hence why we’re exploring this avenue, the reason I’ve chosen to pursue two of the three crops suggested is precisely because of the quality of the land available, Lavender for example grows best in dry, well drained sandy soil, likewise rock rose, both have the option of harvesting, drying and selling as is OR extraction of the essential oils and the by products such as hand made soaps etc obviously extracting the oil provides additional income, both products need little to no fertiliser input so you negate the licenses required to fertilize your crops, both provide a crop annually without the need for re sowing/planting so it negates cost and labour. I’m led to believe rock rose grows sporadically wild in southern Spain already, it’s a bit of an emerging market for that one, one which historically used to be utilised and then kind of fell out of favour and is only recently re occurring. When it comes to rural tourism I’ve already had experience of running both H&B’s and hotels and I don’t want to revisit that lol so we’d be looking at self catering accom only and any other future crops would need to be carefully selected dependent on the land/plot we choose, we have the budget, I have the knowledge required and I’m learning Spanish currently so it’s just a case of doing the due diligence to see if it’s just a pipe dream or if it could become a reality
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 4:13 am
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Barriej
For self employment and a B&B its a lot harder now than oh lets say 4 years ago.

We had originally planned to come here and do just what you have said.
A house with land for a B&B or 'glamping'.
I was going to stay in the Uk and continue to work and the wife and our son were going to run the 'business'.
My wife's father has lived here for around 20 years, so we already had contacts and were known in he local towns (we had been holidaying here 3 times a year since 2004) I'd helped out installing some machinery in a local factory while on holiday for my Uk employer.
Also my wife's father has owned and run hotels, my wife and son owned a cafe and we did B&B for a while when we were living on the UK south coast. So we had experience.
My wages from the Uk would have covered all of our general outgoings, I would have gone contract and spent 3 months of the year here in Spain helping and working.

We looked at properties, viewed an up and running B&B business in Altea, spoke with solicitors, estate agents, banks etc
You need licences for everything here in Spain, tourist licence, kitchen licence (if doing food), you will need hygiene certificates (if doing food), insurances etc.

Tourist licence requirements.
Read this...
https://advisorscostablanca.com/how-...ence-in-spain/

The land you have must be the correct type or you cannot build etc.
We looked at having a kitchen where the guests could pick the organic fruit and veg and make their own food (this would have been in with the cost of the rooms)
Selling produce here in a small town all depends on who you know and how much networking (greasing palms) you do, for this the local language is key. (we know the local Police chief and the Mayor) as both of them see me out in my weird car...

I spent nearly one full year making a plan, getting drawings of the rooms made, contacting the councils here for licence requirements, checking finances and then came to the conclusion that we might just about cover all costs if we were fortunate and we were going to do something unusual and had a possible audience of a couple of million people across the Uk and the EU to attract to the B&B. We had a plan that would have tapped into a good market, with reasonable returns, just not profit.

We changed plans and have a nice little 3 bed flat in a tiny village and I paint and draw (and I sell some of these) make and repair Jewellery and play with my Mini Moke.
We may explore the B&B again one day but Im still young (59) and having some well earned rest and fun at the moment..

Now horses for courses, my experience will be different to yours BUT.
We are just coming out of a world wide health issue, this alone has probably wiped a lot of the small B&B's out. It has round here, of the three we knew of, only one is still going and he runs a health and lifestyle retreat...
Large holiday destinations are recovering but they still have a way to go.
The town we live in, has a reasonable tourist trade, yet the hostel in the town has less than 20% trade at the moment and they were going to be one of our competitors (when we looked at doing this they were always fully booked Feb-April and Sept-Oct)

So that why I think you will need some luck.
We didn't have to provide a business plan, or any of the other stuff you will need to prove you can do this before you start with the hard work of actually running a business.

Also as it says in the visa paperwork.There must be evidence of sufficient funds to establish and maintain employment indefinitely.

But I do wish you luck but please do your research and then do some more, then take off 20% for bad weather etc, and if you still think its worth it.

Then go for it....

Oh if you want to do the "Golden Visa"
http://extranjeros.inclusion.gob.es/...tir-INGLES.pdf
Thanks for a very informative reply, definitely food for thought and one of the reasons I wanted to come on to this forum so I could gain from peoples experience
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 4:31 am
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Jock1
hi, we’re below the level required for a golden visa and to be honest I’m not ready to hang up my work boots yet hence why we’re exploring this avenue, the reason I’ve chosen to pursue two of the three crops suggested is precisely because of the quality of the land available, Lavender for example grows best in dry, well drained sandy soil, likewise rock rose, both have the option of harvesting, drying and selling as is OR extraction of the essential oils and the by products such as hand made soaps etc obviously extracting the oil provides additional income, both products need little to no fertiliser input so you negate the licenses required to fertilize your crops, both provide a crop annually without the need for re sowing/planting so it negates cost and labour. I’m led to believe rock rose grows sporadically wild in southern Spain already, it’s a bit of an emerging market for that one, one which historically used to be utilised and then kind of fell out of favour and is only recently re occurring. When it comes to rural tourism I’ve already had experience of running both H&B’s and hotels and I don’t want to revisit that lol so we’d be looking at self catering accom only and any other future crops would need to be carefully selected dependent on the land/plot we choose, we have the budget, I have the knowledge required and I’m learning Spanish currently so it’s just a case of doing the due diligence to see if it’s just a pipe dream or if it could become a reality
I think if you can show you have knowledge and have done serious research plus located a property and obviously visited it and got information about licences from local town hall and you can show you have the intial investment income you would stand a chance. Other route is apply for NLV and get the property and just experiment for a couple of years then you can apply to change to self employment visa. That way it's much easier to know if you will be successfull and if it's for you
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 4:41 am
  #23  
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Now I’ve read some of these posts I’ll definitely be researching wether or not I need an existing qualification in horticulture prior to taking any leap, never even crossed my mind, would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has gone down the NLV route and then swapped across to being self employed, how difficult was it to accomplish, how did you make the transition ie how do you get from one day being unable to take an income and next day having the product to realise an income ie how do you produce a product to find out if it’s feasible without the ability to sell it (if your visa is NLV) to see if theirs a viable marketplace
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 5:10 am
  #24  
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Default Re: Just joined

Originally Posted by Jock1
Now I’ve read some of these posts I’ll definitely be researching wether or not I need an existing qualification in horticulture prior to taking any leap, never even crossed my mind, would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has gone down the NLV route and then swapped across to being self employed, how difficult was it to accomplish, how did you make the transition ie how do you get from one day being unable to take an income and next day having the product to realise an income ie how do you produce a product to find out if it’s feasible without the ability to sell it (if your visa is NLV) to see if theirs a viable marketplace
It is not that complicated. The advantage of coming with the NLV is that can get a feel for spain and the feasibility of the project which would be better than doing research from a different country. Obviously at the time of the change you would already have the place and could provide much better evidence as to it potential. I assume that you have been to Spain and have some experience of the inland rural areas as this would be a crucial first step? Remember you can stay here for nearly 3 months without any visa so maybe you could pencil in some time- once in August when you have the peak heats and once in January when it can be cold and wet.
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 9:39 pm
  #25  
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Lots of useful stuff here

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

good luck
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 10:44 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Jock1
hi, we’re below the level required for a golden visa and to be honest I’m not ready to hang up my work boots yet hence why we’re exploring this avenue, the reason I’ve chosen to pursue two of the three crops suggested is precisely because of the quality of the land available, Lavender for example grows best in dry, well drained sandy soil, likewise rock rose, both have the option of harvesting, drying and selling as is OR extraction of the essential oils and the by products such as hand made soaps etc obviously extracting the oil provides additional income, both products need little to no fertiliser input so you negate the licenses required to fertilize your crops, both provide a crop annually without the need for re sowing/planting so it negates cost and labour. I’m led to believe rock rose grows sporadically wild in southern Spain already, it’s a bit of an emerging market for that one, one which historically used to be utilised and then kind of fell out of favour and is only recently re occurring. When it comes to rural tourism I’ve already had experience of running both H&B’s and hotels and I don’t want to revisit that lol so we’d be looking at self catering accom only and any other future crops would need to be carefully selected dependent on the land/plot we choose, we have the budget, I have the knowledge required and I’m learning Spanish currently so it’s just a case of doing the due diligence to see if it’s just a pipe dream or if it could become a reality
Its good that you have some knowledge already of the things you might like to pursue, which is a nice change from some of the other requests that appear here..

If you can, come over for an extended fact finding tour at different times of the year (we always visited in the late/early times never during summer) So we were aware of the fact that while daily temps might be low 20's in December.
Night can get below 4c, which in the vast majority of Spanish uninsulated homes, is like being in the arctic and they get damp as well.
We also had over three weeks of almost continuous rain this year and temps of 0c and high winds a year or so ago in January.

You can do the NLV and then at the end of the first year when you renew, change over to the self employed as you will already have the residency part sorted.
I also assuming that this can then be done from Spain not the Uk like the original NLV, which means you can find a local solicitor who knows the system to help you, which you will need to navigate the endless piles of paperwork this country is famous for.
If you go self employed, unlike the Uk you will have to pay your 'stamp' every month even if you do not earn enough to cover it..
Here are the figures so you know about the expenses as well. At least paying this will get you into the healthcare system..

https://balcellsgroup.com/social-sec...-increase-2022

With respect to the essential oils bit, you may find that you are adding too many eggs to your basket if you apply in the Uk for the self employed route, lots of little income streams wont be as good as one decent one.
So you will need to prioritise which one will get you the visa easiest and with the least amount of licences and qualifications needed.

I might suggest a compromise here. Why not have a business with letting rooms and included is a health retreat that also grows plants for essential oils that the guests can pick and make oils and lavender pillows etc to take home?
Obviously you will have organic foods for them to eat from the garden as well.
Again you would need to talk to someone here about this.

Also mainland Europe are rather hot on things like permits for oils etc and you would have to have a chemist licence or be qualified unless you were just growing to sell to a company who would then process.
There are a couple of large companies here who already do this, but you might be too small a producer for them.
Doing it yourself here involves shed loads of accreditation etc. (unlike the Uk where cottage industry allows unlicensed soap makers to use their kitchens). Again I know something of this as one of the business's the wife ran years ago was a Holistic and new age shop and website back in the late 1990's (she made some of the products and I made the jewellery) Rocks, fossils and healing crystal, figurines etc were purchased for wholesalers i had dealt with from the early 1980's

These people are near Cartagena, and buy from local farms and produce a nice range of products.
https://thalissi.com/en/

This details some of the required labelling etc
https://www.ecomundo.eu/en/blog/esse...osmetics-reach

This details the essential oil market in the EU.
https://www.cbi.eu/market-informatio...rket-potential

See I did our homework when we were looking at this sort of thing and still keep the details
You can, when you have narrowed down your area to live, contact the nearest trade association and even the local council to see if the land you are buying needs any special permits.
The council will be your first port of call for almost everything you wish to do, so introduce yourself there.

For example here in sunny Polop* (where it was 28c at 10am this morning) The local council were happy for us to grow and supply organic veg for the exclusive use of our visitors, but they said we could not easily sell it in the local market as there were already 3 stalls of local farmers doing this.
We could get a licence for one of the other things we wanted to do but would need to employ at least one local to actually do the job (although I am qualified to do so)
We also wanted to have artists stay and I would take them to local spots (the licence for this was complex as my driving was considered a taxi and you need high public and personal liability insurance)
I was also going to run Jewellery workshops and that was OK because I still have my apprenticeship papers and a Uk hallmark in my name...
Technically if you are collecting people from the airport you would also need a transport licence and insurance as well as you will be considered at taxi driver (factor that if your guests don't drive).

*sunny Polop, a small town with a couple of urbanisations and one small village in the mountains 12km inland of Altea on the Costa Blanca has a total population of around 5000 (less than 1000 live in the town) and we live in the village a km or so away with less than 200 inhabitants.
There are Nispero plantations, Almonds, Oranges, lemons and avocado's everywhere.

Oh to grow avocados require special licences due to the amount of water you need for them.
You will also have to fence them as theft of these is (at least round here) the biggest issue.
There was a big piece in the Olive Press (a local newspaper) about a gang who stripped trees of around 150kg from one farm last year...

Last edited by Barriej; Jun 14th 2022 at 10:50 pm.
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Old Jun 14th 2022, 11:52 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Barriej
We could get a licence for one of the other things we wanted to do but would need to employ at least one local to actually do the job (although I am qualified to do so)
We also wanted to have artists stay and I would take them to local spots (the licence for this was complex as my driving was considered a taxi and you need high public and personal liability insurance)
I was also going to run Jewellery workshops and that was OK because I still have my apprenticeship papers and a Uk hallmark in my name...
Technically if you are collecting people from the airport you would also need a transport licence and insurance as well as you will be considered at taxi driver (factor that if your guests don't drive).

*sunny Polop, a small town with a couple of urbanisations and one small village in the mountains 12km inland of Altea on the Costa Blanca has a total population of around 5000 (less than 1000 live in the town) and we live in the village a km or so away with less than 200 inhabitants.
There are Nispero plantations, Almonds, Oranges, lemons and avocado's everywhere.

Oh to grow avocados require special licences due to the amount of water you need for them.
You will also have to fence them as theft of these is (at least round here) the biggest issue.
There was a big piece in the Olive Press (a local newspaper) about a gang who stripped trees of around 150kg from one farm last year...
Good points with the licences and although I'm not a full time resident in Spain, I now certainly know why so many of my Spanish friends complain.
As you say, avocados need huge amounts of water and you would certainly need fleece when it drops below 0. It wouldn't surprise me if they introduce more environmental taxes in the future and it's usually the small farmer that's hit. Like any business it will probably come down to the exact location and how the business is run. I remember talking to one of the employees at a perfumery not too far from us and they produce soaps, creams & oils and I asked if everything is local. Although they used to grow lavender and other flowers locally, they now source from larger suppliers in Bulgaria because it was too much work and financially it didn't make sense to grow themselves. You could source the lavender from other local farms and concentrate on the production of the oils as growing is a full time job alone.

Last edited by Moses2013; Jun 14th 2022 at 11:55 pm.
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