Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Well then you are obviously not worth it ;)

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Sigh, I'll come back when I've made my fortune elsewhere then.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

someone wiser than me once posted here... the easiest way to make a million in spain...is to come here with 2 million....

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

"Average" salaries vary quite a bit depending on region, field, etc. I'd have to suspect that averages are far lower in the south than in the north. But among the cushiest jobs are in government. Above average salaries, loads of bennies, low work hours, and holidays galore. But government positions highly favour Spanish nationals, unless of course, it involves tourism or another outward-focused role. In any case, Spanish language a requirement.

Still, average salaries in Spain are decidedly lower than most of the EU. But so is cost of living (also varies by region). Also, as a foreigner, particularly if you don't speak the local language, your chances of gainful employment are far more limited (with a few exceptions, such a highly specialised fields e.g. marine / yacht engineering).

The general wisdom for foreigners (referring to non-spanish nationals) is to bring your money with you. The old joke is "if you want to be a millionaire in Spain, just bring 2 million with you".

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

I don't know how old that joke is, but at a barest minimum I know it is at least 40 minutes old. :lol:

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Yes, who would have thought that somebody looking for work in Spain would have to speak Spanish :lol:

Actually being a bilingual foreigner, it is way easier to find a good job than for a Spaniard because companies always are looking for native English speakers who also have a skill beyond just speaking English

Also, there are loads of young British people all over Spain working as English teachers purely because they are a native English speaker. The heavily qualified Spanish teachers of English find this completely unfair given that the foreigner has usually just has a TEFL certificate that can be done in a few hours while they have had to go to university to get a degree and masters and spend years passing the oposiciones

So in that way, foreigners are definitely favoured over Spanish people

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Of course average varies, but it is the reality that you have a few people earning a lot in Spain and many people earning little. As mentioned, Spanish have to spend around 39% of their salary on rent, which is on par with the UK (among highest in Europe). I don't know where people get their figures, but I don't think cost of living is low in Spain. Every time I go, I don't feel it's cheap (apart from alcohol/cigarettes & the local bar serving tapas). Clothing, food, electrical goods, utility bills, cars, furniture etc. not cheaper than many other countries in Europe.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Well there you go. Get a TEFL cert, and you're off to the promised land.

But apparently, if you're making €1800/mo in TEFL, you're in the top of the top bracket in this field, most likely only achievable in a high cost of living region such as central Madrid.

But there's also another easy job to assign yourself: estate agent. Nothing required. Set up a website, print some business cards, and start listing properties. In fact, almost every retiree around here is an "estate agent". Disclaimer: highly competitive field. Property sales lowest in a decade. Most properties list with multiple agents. Requires significant investment of time and money. After showing properties to prospects, buyers may conduct purchase through another agent. Most clients are just looking, and never intend to buy anything from you. Results may vary...

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

I have properties in both Spain and Germany. And I can say with absolute confidence that everything is significantly more expensive in Germany. Everything from a light bulb to a loaf of bread, from appliances to hand workers, from beer and wine, to a meal in a restaurant, from petrol to insurance... Everything is substantially more expensive in Germany. Sometimes triple the price.

In our recent remodeling, we brought lots of stuff from Spain (e.g., LED lighting) because it's triple the price in Germany for exactly the same items.

Oh, I should probably add that due to the numerous petty regulations in Germany, I have some risk of going foul by not paying a certified electrician to change the light bulbs, but also because they are Spanish branded versions and probably illegal in Germany.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

funny, ive just started renting and mine is alot less, but we are by no means rich...Its under 18% of the house income...

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Surely as the OP is retired average salary means nothing most of us retire and live comfortably on much lower than UK average salary because once retired many outgoings dissapear.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Not at all. Germany is also a huge country and prices vary. Most people only look at their direct surroundings, so if you are in a bigger village in Germany next to an expensive shop, but live in a smaller village in Spain next to a cheap shop, you'll think Spain is cheap. I actually just came back from Spain/Germany and prices for clothing were very high in both countries. I went into different supermarkets in Spain and I could honestly not see any price difference. Certain products might be cheap one week, but the next week they could be cheaper in the other country. You can also rent a 60m2 apartment in Haale/Saale for less than €300. Rental will always seem cheap for retired British people who don't need work, but the Spanish need to live where there is work and can't convert pounds into euros. Anyway, I'm not talking about rental prices, because when you're mortgage free you're mortgage free anywhere. Fact is that Spain is Europe and it's not that cheap.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

We have friends in Ireland who only spend 15% of their income on rental for a house and they aren't rich, but ask someone in Dublin and they might be spending 40%. The point is that most people have to live where they can get work and cities in Spain are not cheap when you look at salaries vs. rental costs. British people mostly move from areas in the UK with employment to areas in Spain where there is no work at all, so it will always be cheap. Even in parts of Northern Ireland you can rent a nice 3 bed house with garden for £400 which would be cheap compared to Barcelona.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Oh, out of pure neccessity, I've performed a lengthy study of this recently.

You're right, there is some variation depending on where you shop. But in general, prices are higher in Germany for all things. You can occasionally find something only a few cents more expensive than in Spain, but generally, its going to be more expensive.

In fact, it seems to be the opposite in Germany than Mallorca. I find the best prices in Mallorca around Palma, the capitol city of about half a million. Prices seem to go up as you go out to the campo. In Germany, prices seem to increase as you get closer to the populous areas.

But even in the German outback, prices are still higher than in Mallorca. Especially for services. For example; Deluxe professionally-built bathroom modernisation in Mallorca: €3000 - €5000. In Germany: €10k - €40k.

At the baumarkt: New sink: Mallorca: €50-€200. Germany: €100-€500. New faucet: Mallorca: €30-€150. Germany: €80-€350. LED lamps: Leroy Merlin: €1.50-€16. Obi (Germany): €7-€36. May seem like a small difference, until you are replacing 20 lamps.

I believe some of the disparity in service prices are due not only to higher salaries, but also due to the strict regulations in Germany. You're supposed to hire a certified professional for anything, even fixing a faucet or a lamp, especially in a rental property. €60 per hour, and if they supply the parts, double the price sold in stores.

Worse yet, many so-called "certified" German professionals haven't a clue. They send their junior newbies out for jobs like this, and they generally don't know the difference between a water pipe and an electrical cable. A small leak in a faucet will be assessed to require a complete replacement of everything. A bad light switch may be assessed to require replacement of the main fusebox. And all you can do is tell them to leave, and call the next "professional", hoping they'll just fix the problem without turning it into a major construction project.

Worse, if a painter needs to remove a switch plate, or a plumber needs to disconnect a dishwasher from the electricity, or even turn off electricity for any reason, they are not legally allowed to do so. Only a certified electrician is allowed to remove switch plates or disconnect the dishwasher, or even turn off the power at the interruptor. So, you pay €60 for travel, and €60 per hour for the electrician to wait while the painter or plumber does his job (also getting €60 per hour), so he can replace the switch plates or plug in the dishwasher, or turn on the switch afterward. Brilliant. Most important is to have the detailed work order and the receipt for those services, in case anyone questions whether the dishwasher was "professionally" plugged in and turned on. Otherwise, it could be legally "unsafe" or even subject to fines. And they do inspect!

Having said that, Mallorca has many similar petty regulations, but most are devised for the purpose of generating incremental revenue for ajuntamentos. Virtually everything requires (paying for) planning permission, right down to painting your lounge. But it's rarely enforced, and for most minor work such as painting, nobody ever bothers. And a plumber can legally disconnect the diswasher and painters can legally remove switch plates. And that makes it a lot less expensive.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Just your personal experience but what type of sink are we talking about? Funny enough many Spanish shops actually order their stuff from Germany and everything is online these days. I'm not saying that Germany is cheap, but Spain isn't Thailand either. The sink you saw for €50 is probably from China, so I can order it online in Poland too. I can also get a Spanish builder to do my work in Germany if I live there????. I'm saying that Spain is not much cheaper than the rest of Europe when it comes to daily expenses (Food, clothing, water, electricity).

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Selection at German baumarkts are roughly the same as in Spain. Prices are just higher. If you were referring to "German made" vs. "Chinese made", be aware that most German products are manufactured in Asia these days. Same stuff.

Nationality of hand workers doesn't matter, as long as their German firm has German certification to conduct the work. Of course, you can hire anyone you want to say, install a lamp or a socket (or do it yourself), but if you rent or sell the property, you have to prove it was installed by a German-certified professional. You can also hire a professional to "certify" your work, but that generally costs as much as having them do the work in the first place.

True, electricity in Germany (per kilowatt) is only about 10% more expensive than in Spain. But Denmark, Germany, and Spain are the 3 most expensive in the world. the UK on the other hand, is quite a bit cheaper, coming in around 6th.

Food is clearly more expensive in Germany. But only about 10%-20%, again depending on where you shop. Wine and beer of course, are much more expensive in Germany. Clothing? I can't really compare because I haven't done much clothing shopping in Germany lately. But just window shopping, certainly women's clothes seem to be generally price-tagged noticeably higher in Germany.

Look, we can pick over this and that, but clearly we have different experiences. Employment is far more challenging in Spain, salaries are lower, and it's therefore it shouldn't be surprising that comparing apples for apples, cost of living would naturally be lower.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

One thing new (or potential) Expats may not have considered - the pound:euro exchange rate fluctuates a lot (from 1.10 - 1.50 euros for a pound) so yes the OPs do have an above average income for Spain but just remember to factor in these dramatic currency exchange rates as I know it has caught out many Expats in the past.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

That is a very good and valid point, I like when planning to work on around 1.20 below that it seems to make quite a difference. When I had my mortgage I had to do an exchange on the lowest of all dates as it was pretty set and I got 98 centimos for a £ now that was worrying. Luckily that improved

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

At 1.40 to the pound Spain is cheaper than the uK. At around 1.15 it's, in my opinion, on a par with the uK.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Yes I would agree and not that long ago it was well below 1.15 for quite some time and its fall to that from around 1.37 - 1.40 was rapid.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

I should have added that it's still cheaper at 1.15 if you are an alcoholic chain smoker.;)

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

I find Spain cheaper for everything than the UK. A couple of examples, and ones which aren't impacted by the big country, cheap region, cheap shop argument are:

I bought a new car in Spain last year. My brother-in-law bought the same car in the UK a couple of months earlier. On a circa 13,000 UKP purchase, I paid 1,000 less.

I buy clothes from Next. Next's prices are the same in all their UK stores and their website sells at the same prices as the stores no matter where you live. There is now a Next.es site and as an example, a polo shirt listed on the UK site for 35 UKP is on the .es site for 37 EUR, which is about 26/27 UKP.

Moving on, I spend quite a lot of my disposable income on eating out. Whether high-end or low-end, Spain is cheaper. Forget the local places, even comparing national outlets where prices are fixed, Spain is cheaper. Take McDonalds, for example, always cheaper than the UK price list.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

There is little merit in comparing prices of consumer goods without looking at the ability to pay. It would be pointless of a company setting it's prices so high that people weren't able to afford them.

Spain's ability to pay is considerably less than the UK or Germany. If you compare the official minimum wages in each country (2015 figures compared at 1st July exchange rates) they are as follows:
Spain 5.08 Euro
Germany 8.51 Euro
UK 9.09 Euro

Now you may consider that the minimum wage is a crude measure to use but by a number of other economic indicators the same conclusion is reached. Price points are decided by the ability to pay which is why a Mcdonalds in the UK is on average £5, in Spain 7 Euros and in Russia $5.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

I thought the minimum wage in Spain was 3.50 Euro per hour? About 630 EURO per month

But yes, things are cheaper in Spain because people earn less and rental of commercial property is way less

Most multinationals price their products lower for Spain

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Due to the exchange rate Spain will obviously now seem a lot cheaper for Brits, but if you are earning Euros and spending Euros it's not cheap at all. Ireland is considered expensive because we have a minimum wage of €9.15, but after coming back from Spain I did not find Spain cheap at all. In reality you can find bargains in any EU country and as mentioned, one week one product might be cheaper elsewhere. I just found that my food bill was not much different here compared to Spain, especially if you go for special offers. The carrots might be 10 cents cheaper in Spain this week, but we have a special offer on Steak, so I save a Euro here. No doubt that alcohol is cheap in Spain, but I can just fill up my car when I'm there anyway if I fancy drinking. We recently bought furniture here in Ireland that was made in Germany, but it was half the price compared to Spanish & German websites. Even if it was pricier, I can still talk to the sales person and say I've seen it cheaper online. All I'm saying is that cost of living can be roughly the same anywhere in Europe if you're flexible and can negotiate.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

With respect to this discussion, it's not pointless, unless you are planning to live and work within the Spanish economy. Most expats don't.

The fact is, that Brits and Germans simply have more income, so it goes farther in Spain. Full stop.

And minimum wage doesn't have all that much to do with it. Until last year, Germany had none at all, and people still had higher incomes.

But it is true that "market prices" for goods are heavily dependent on what people are willing (and can) pay. But even when market prices are higher, profits are offset by generally higher costs of doing business in those regions, and of course, higher taxes.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Where else can you buy an octopus for 15 euros and a bag of cherries for 1 euro :thumbsup::lol::lol::lol:

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Or be given huge bags of oranges, lemons, persimmons and all manner of vegetables that were picked that day.........free!!!

Rosemary

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Affordability is a mindset Rosemary, gratis is bestest :thumbsup:

For me a warm home and a warm heart ( and a cool pool ) are worth an extra euro or two :thumbup:

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Well, we have cherry trees, apple trees, pear trees etc. in our garden. You can buy an octopus for less than €15 these days, but in a few years we might not even see them. Spain has been overfishing for years and we're destroying our oceans. Food prices are far to low in Europe and I wouldn't mind spending a bit more money if the quality is good and you know you're supporting the local economy.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

My current rate for 5 litres of wine is 1 Euro, delivered to my door by a local friend who has a mate in the campo.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

If food prices are too low for you and you care about the oceans, it is possible using this wonderful Internet thingy to source organic and ethical food at much higher prices than you can find on your local street. There are websites in Spain that sell this stuff. Fill yer boots, but let skint people have cheap food too, it's really important to them.

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

Absolutely, Spain has tons of ethical and organic food providers online

And there is plenty of choice in the cities to eat good quality and sustainable fish and meat anyway. And lots of fruit and veg from people´s local huertas

There is no excuse for eating badly in Spain as long as you can afford to eat well. And even if you can´t, lots of people have friends and family like Rosemary´s

Re: How long is a piece of string...
 

If people were willing to spend more for food, maybe we wouldn't have as many skint people. If you support the local guy who sells free range eggs, he will have more money to buy quality meat from the local butcher and the butcher will have money to buy his pint at the local pub.