bchapl

I tend to agree with both Twyntub and GrapeEater in the debate regarding the proposed development in Hondon.

First, I feel that Twyntub is correct in that we (the expats, regardless of nationality) should get involved in order to both remain aware of what's in the planning stage and also in order to mobilise collectively if and when there is a need. That means our greater involvement at the inception of the planning stage [B]and [B]greater consulation by the Town Hall and the Mayor with the residents of Hondon.

Second, I agree with GrapeEater that Hondon as a village does need to plan for the future, particularly with regard to the provision of services to people living in and around the village. I also feel he is correct when he refers to the need for greater employment opportunities to retain a younger population within the village (and this goes for both Spanish and expat residents).

However, when I look around at other areas in Spain where development has gone on unchecked (such as in Benalmadena, as mentioned by JDR) and where the 'casualities' as GrapeEater terms them, lose part of their land and/or part of their house, this, I argue, is something that must be fought against. There have been many incidences of 'land grab' all over Spain, but particularly in the Valenciana region. Isn't it the case that such practice was deemed unlawful by the European Court of Human Rights? Certainly, in a discussion which I had with my Spanish tutor this morning (who hails from Malaga), he was under the impression that this is the case. Most of us who have bought property in the Hondon region have done so because we deemed it to be a quiet, rural area. The adverse publicity to which GrapeEater implicitly refers might not be the only thing which puts off potential buyers; a sprawling urbanization (or two) may also put them off buying in the area, meaning that the proposed development will not serve its intended purpose, which is to ensure the prosperity of the village. Surely there has been a backlash by expat buyers against urban/urbanised dwelling, as is evident by the huge number of properties both in Benalmadena and, indeed, in Hondon, which appear to have been left unsold? When we were in Hondon last week the urbanization looked like a ghost town (OK, some houses are holiday homes, but just the same!) It seems to me that more buyers are now looking for a rural idyll rather than a house on a vast urbanization, as in the past? Hasn't Spain learned this lesson? Seemingly not!

So, we need to have a greater degree of consultation between the Town Hall and the Mayor and the residents of Hondon, and Twyntub is, to my mind, correct in getting involved at what may be an early stage of planning. To be forewarned is to be forearmed! I only wish I was in Hondon more often than I am so that I too could get involved. Tywntub, please can you PM me with the date of the next meeting which you might have with the Town Hall and I'll try to attend if at all possible? Thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
bchapl

GrapeEater

Yep, all good points, and I have mixed feelings about it, and proof that there is no easy answer to urban planning - it's impossible to please everyone. We will differ in our needs and concerns.

But there will be 'casualties', winners and losers, but there's no way I mean land-grab... unlawful, unfair and immoral.

The key is to get involved the council, who should have to invite us and respect us ... and take on Ex-pats (at least at spokesperson level) as they need to earn OUR respect and crucially votes ...or the back-lash will happen anyway at some stage. (How many protests have we read about in Urbs across Spain)

You're also right Bchapl that many people like you aren't always there to know or support any concerns... so you may argue that you are not represented ??

There is a meeting on 3rd March at the Hondon Nieves Town Hall with Reps from the Montanosa Urb and the Mayor - I have no agenda or time as yet. But it's a Rep/Mayor meeting only as the 'open meetings' were unmanageable. When you are next here you should find out if your part of the Urb as a Rep'

EsuriJohn

???

twyntub

Okay, I'm back.

GrapeEater - I fully understand your point of view, and I do take on board what you say. As a fellow "Hondonian" - all of our views count. This affects us all - and the last thing we need right now is to start an argument!

The issue we find ourselves with is this. The 45 day public consultation period has already started. In 37 days, any suggestions that you or I have to either stop this or make this plan in some way better will, in law, be null and void. The plan will then be put forward to Valencia, in front of the same political party that is represented by the Mayor. Quod erat, one can pre-suppose that the plan will at least receive a warm reception. Once the plans reach Valencia it's out of all of our hands - so what goes and what stays becomes anyone's guess!

Those that have a concern or grievance should visit the Town Hall - Mondays or Fridays between 11am and 1pm. There will be someone there on those days that speaks English.

It is worth noting that in 2005, out of a population of 2,507 there were 1,676 'Nationales' and 831 'Extranjeros' on the padron - 33.15%. Those from the UK numbered 442, Netherlands 176, Germany 109. Yet the last time the opposition party tried to rally support from the British at a planning meeting, barely 20 people turned up! There are a lot of us here - but we're not exactly an organised bunch... I honestly doubt we'd be able to muster enough support in 37 days to offer anything credible to the Town Hall in opposition to this plan.

Finally, contrary to popular belief, land grab is perfectly lawful in this part of Spain. Immoral and unfair - yes. Unlawful - sadly not.

So, if anyone has any ideas as to how we could muster support from the expat community here, please PM me.

Bri and Katee

Twyntub you do have as far as I was told, 1 eng 1 dutch 1 german on the local council. I was in a cafe having sunday lunch in the square early last December when a nice english guy came and sat with us, he was known to the lady we were with. During the conversation he brought up the machinations of the local council and the impression he gave was that he was a councillor.
He said he didn't have much input because although having been there since 1977 his spanish was poor!! He relied on the dutch guy to do most of the translating for him before he made any decisions

Bri and Katee

Is it worth leafletting the urb with a quick a5 flyer warnign people of what is about to happen and asking for their support? Many of them are probably quite unaware of what is going on and would be only too willing to protect what could be forcibly taken away from them

bchapl

I agree with Bri and Katee that perhaps a flyer would be helpful? Perhaps with details of a meeting for expats to discuss the issue? However, if, as Twyntub states, there has hitherto been little response to such a meeting, this may be fruitless and if we only have 37 days left to organise a response, time is of the essence. As stated, being over here in the UK, I feel quite helpless, to be honest. OK, how about a petition (could be internet organised) requesting, in the first instance, more time for wider consultation with 'Hondonians'? Having completed a quick Internet search, it would appear that Twyntub is correct, land grab is lawful in Spain, despite numerous protests and threats to take this problem to the EU. So, at the very least we could perhaps organise a petition to be presented to the Town Hall registering our concerns? What do we all think of this idea?
bchapl

tim hortons man

It's not a mystery why anyone would want to live in Spain (learning another language is a pain) it's very nice here (even up in Madrid) What is a mystery is why anyone in there right minds would buy a house!!!!

I don't need to list all the reasons but basically anyone who bought property in the last few years is going to lose money. m

EsuriJohn

But renting is "dead" money as well so its a gamble will you loose more renting than buying. All things being equal (utility costs, taxes and charges) the advantage would be you can do what you want in your own place but a landlord might object to a dark red lounge!

bchapl

Thank you for that cheerful (and very unhelpful) thought! Many people have bought houses because they envisaged a more pleasant and more amenable lifestyle. The alternative to buying a property is to rent from someone who already owns a property and make them rich in the process! People buy houses because they desire some permanency. What they possibly did not envisage was a potentially huge scale development directly on their doorsteps and/or the possibility of their land being grabbed to provide for this!
bchapl

jdr

The problem is in Spain if there is a piece of land in front of you, then you can bet something will get built on it.
We looked at some places when we first arrived, since then the front line properties on the urbo are now about the fourth line where they have been built on the ex landscaped gardens.
I posted some pics on here where they had filled between two small mountains with concrete and are building another two rows of apartments across the top.

EsuriJohn

Hi bchapl,

Sorry if I offended but you cannot avoid the truth. As a footnote we are just about halfway through building a villa in Spain it has got more expensive and more complicated with each passing day (first visit July 2003 so you can imagine the cost after 4 years hyper inflation) but god willing we are determined to finish and move over to our house in Spain later this year. Yes there are huge scale developments, and I mean 6000 units, being built all around us but we did buy our plot on an approved Ubanisation so no land grab and being frontline to 8th fairway no one is going to build in front of us.

We did do a lot of research and thinking before we settled on the town and location and the decision to build our own and not take a developers ready made product was something I have wanted to do for the last 40 years in either UK or abroad.


Regards,

John.
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bchapl

Good morning, John & Kath,
There seems to be some confusion here - I was not offended by your comments at all - you were only agreeing with me about the advantages of buying over renting - I was, in fact, referring to the post by tim hortons man, which I found unhelpful, although no doubt there is also a story behind his views too - perhaps he too has been burned? I wish you both the very best of luck in realising your dream.
My OH and I also did a great deal of research before buying, including hiring an independent solicitor who completed all of the requisite searches, yet had no knowledge of this urban expansion in Hondon. The mere thought that after all of this research and the buying process, which, as we know, can be very complicated and protracted in Spain, we may lose our land/house or both, is extremely worrying. We too have only wished to realise our dream for a better quality of lifestyle than the one we currently have in the UK and have ploughed all of our savings into this purchase. As I've said before in threads on this forum, my OH has not been very well and, even now, is unaware of the potential problems with a house upon which we only completed last October - I can't bring myself to tell him about the proposed urban plan just yet as his health may take a downturn if he knows. I'm attempting to find out as much information as I can before I tell him that his dream home may be in jeopardy.
Fingers crossed that there can be a positive solution to all of this.
Best wishes,
bchapl

HereKittyKitty

I am finding it all very worrying. We too looked upon this area as ideal for us (no apartment blocks and semi-rural). It must be especially worrying for those who have bought or built with land with all this land-grab talk. Much as I am trying not to get too stressed about it all (we could have chosen anywhere we wanted) I am beginning to wake up for hours in the early hours wondering if we have made the biggest mistake of our lives! It certainly has been the biggest decision we have ever made after years of thinking about it.

After weeks of reading about habitation licences and other wrong-doings I am coming round to the thought that maybe our dream of a better or just plain different way of life may not turn out to be so good?

Yet when we visited there, spoke to people already living there (and loving it, despite teething problems) we really felt it was "for us".

I am beginning to wonder if the whole building trade in Spain works on corruption as well as the Town Hall and others. Surely it can't be that bad? If it were, would so many expats from different Countries go there to live?

We are invseting all we have in this (which isn't that much really!) and I pray it turns out to be as we expected for us and our 7 year old boy.
Not much point to this post really, just typing what I am feeling at the mo!

twyntub

Bchapl, please download the following PDF from the Ayto web site:
http://www.ayto-hondondelasnieves.es.../PGOU/B1-4.pdf

You can zoom right down to individual plots, and should be able to find your plot from there.

Yes, there is a great deal of corruption around, unfortunately many of the expats live in blissful ignorance. The result is that it is often the people buying that exacerbate the problems!

You only have to look at Oasis and the number of people who have moved in without habitation certificates (so they are living there illegally) who pay their builder for water / electricity (also illegal) and then make modifications to their homes such as putting pools in (also illegal). The Town Hall will, in due course, send out large fines to these people, but it will ultimately slow down the whole process for those of us who would like to move in legally one day!

Of course, caveat emptor, but if more honest information was given to expat buyers by estate agents and solicitors in the first place, the 'teething troubles' you talk about just wouldn't happen, and the opportunities for corruption would reduce. Too many buyers are put in a situation where they are pressued to break the law, conveniently masking the laws that were broken by the builder and/or authorities in the first place. This isn't just a Hondon thing... this is widespread throughout Spain.

The thing to remember is that it WILL be sorted in the end... we all have money invested here, and if people are prepared to work together these things will get sorted. The great thing about this forum is we can all help each other - and we will do!