British Expats - Gibraltar 2

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)

- Spain (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/)

- - Gibraltar 2 (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/gibraltar-2-a-854360/)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12597207)

Yes, I am well aware of the subjective, historic and personal reasons, but my question put another way, is what are the objective reasons for not wanting to be a part of Spain, like higher taxes (I assume).

Surely, freedom of movement must be an improvement over the current border situation, which is something the UK could lose.

You don't need objective ones if the subjective ones are sufficient.

That a very weak response, surely you can do better than that. If not, it just confirms my view that Gibraltar should be given back to Spain and stop all this pathetic bickering. I feel the same way about Northern Ireland.

As for it being an important UK naval base, that disappeared years ago and anyway, as part of NATO the UK have access to it if required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12596950)

Presumably if you were part of Spain nearly all of those issues would no longer apply.

Spain is welcome to become part of Gib anytime it wishes
Joining a country with one of the highest GDP's per capita in Europe would solve most if not all of her problems

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12597309)

The people who have lived in Gib, NI and the Falklands, often for many generations, don't want that.

Self-determination is the only solution - if they ever decided they did want to join another country via a sensible democratic vote then that would be a valid point, until then they should be free to stay with the UK.

You are still refusing to answer my question, just saying that the residents donâ€™t want it, which I fully accept.

My question was WHY NOT. Please answer this question or I will have to re-evaluate the need to have a thread on the Spanish forum dedicated to a foreign country that has no connection to Spain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12597333)

You are still refusing to answer my question, just saying that the residents donâ€™t want it, which I fully accept.

My question was WHY NOT.

I've clearly answered your question - possibly because they don't see themselves as Spanish, that is why not - do you see yourself as French or Portuguese? After all Spain is next to both of them.

Quote:

Please answer this question or I will have to re-evaluate the need to have a thread on the Spanish forum dedicated to a foreign country that has no connection to Spain.

Good lord, it's strange what the internet can do to some people. Clearly there is a connection to Spain but that doesn't mean the people want to change their nationality en-masse and become Spanish and under Spanish rule. It's not difficult, many in Catalonia aren't too keen on being under Spanish rule either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12597333)

He did answer your question in the post summed up as experience and you wrote it off because he has yet to reach his bicentennial.

Closed frontiers have nothing to do with 200 years ago there are plenty of 40 somethings with vivid memories of what this meant in their childhood an even one or two who have still never crossed the frontier into Spain they feel so strongly about it.

Your assertion that it may have something to do with tax is way off the mark as the personal tax system is fairly similar to the system in the UK save all the tax talk for people with higher incomes and corporations as they do not apply to the average worker. The corruption on the other side of the border is a very valid point as we in Gibraltar are happier to pay taxes when we can see that the money we pay goes towards improvements in our way of life and not into the pocket of some bent local mayor.

Spain has done absolutely nothing to endear themselves to the people of Gibraltar and the cumulative effect of all that history has obviously led to mistrust. Recent events in CataluÃ±a only reinforces the fear of interference from an undemocratic bully. Gibraltar has always been a safe haven for both sides of Spains arguments (as well as those persecuted by Spain, hence the large Jewish and Moroccan communities here despite being forbidden to do so after Spanish insistence in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht) and those who remained or married into Spanish families are the only connection Gibraltarians have with Spain and aside from the British on the rock plenty of them can trace their roots back to Malta, Genoa as well of course plenty from India and others who migrated across the Mediterranean or the British Empire to set up home.

So, the people have very little connection to a neighbour, which has historically treated them pretty badly and continued to do so right up until the present day and you think asking why they do not want to be part of Spain is a pertinent question ? Seeing as I could probably write a book analysing reasons for them not wanting to be part of Spain and can back it up with a 98% referendum result would it not be far more sensible for you to tell us why they should consider it... the case for the 2% must be far shorter

I am looking better reasons that just that they don't like the idea and I can fully understand that - I am sure I would feel the same. However, let us assume that for some reason the UK agreed to give it back to Spain - what would be the effect on the people of Gibraltar? For example, what would the effect of an open border be - good or bad? How about the effect on the betting and financial interests in Gib - how would they be affected. Spanish control over the airport etc?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12597509)

I am looking better reasons that just that they don't like the idea and I can fully understand that - I am sure I would feel the same However, let us assume that for some reason the UK agreed to give it back to Spain - what would be the effect on the people of Gibraltar? For example, what would the effect of an open border be - good or bad? How about the effect on the betting and financial interests in Gib - how would they be affected. Spanish control over the airport etc?

Yes, we can analyse those points but surely they are irrelevant as ultimately the decision is in the hands of the people and those people feel stronger about the objections we have set out for you and they would put thse objection before any of the benefits you are attempting to outline. Plenty of Gibraltarians work outside of the industries you mention being employed by the government, military support services and other businesses serving the people of Gibraltar they would not make the connection with the amount of money those business generate and their job security therefore would not affect the result of the vote (financial services and betting are very much the domain of foreign and cross border workers). As for Spanish control of the airport do they really want it ? They had the opportunity to build their side of the terminal and never took it, they even had an airline serving Gibraltar - Madrid route but it went out of business because of lack of interest. I cross the border plenty of times, it rarely bothers me too much, if timed right it is easy to avoid the queues and the only serious queues ever build up as a result of Spanish political action. At the moment they have far more pressing issues on their mind dealing with the sharp increase of migrants and drugs heading from the Moroccan coastline which is currently overwhelming their ability to police their own costa so maybe it's a good idea for us to keep our border checks because we can certainly police ours

Thanks for that. That is just the sort of informative post I was looking for.

Fred James, I dont live either in Gib or in Spain. You pushed for specific reasons why Gib should not want to be part of Spain, and I think the replies were very clear. Could you give some specific reasons why Gib would want to join Spain ?

No I cant, thats why I was asking what others think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfjordan (Post 12598353)

Here is someone else's view on that same subject:-
Sanchez making a spectacle of himself Gibraltar Panorama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12598442)

Here is someone else's view on that same subject:-
Sanchez making a spectacle of himself Gibraltar Panorama

sounds pretty spot on to me

The Chief Minister delivers a statement on the current developments regarding Brexit.

https://www.gbc.gi/tv/programmes/sta...f-minister-713