amideislas

You may be right.

When we changed from 10.8Kw to 5.4Kw, there were about €280 in various charges, including a new ICP which is only €40 at Leroy Merlin, but the ICP must be "blessed" by Endesa, so apparently that "blessing" costs another €180 or so (not to mention the fact that the ICP is completely unnecessary because we have a digital meter, which Endesa just hasn't got round to programming for 5.4Kw) AND I pay 10c per day for the "rental" of the ICP on top.

Add to that the obligatory boletin proving that the house is safe for the "downgrade", which is nothing more than a licenced electrician stamping a document in an office somewhere (nobody ever shows up to inspect anything) - €300.

Total cost was €580. I reckon €60 of that was indeed Endesa's charges to change the contract.

But, I'd rather pay the €580 one-time than be charged €500 per month for electricity I don't use.

Lynn R

€300 for a boletin - they saw you coming! Mine cost €80. I wasn't charged anything by Endesa to fit my ICP, either. I just pay the rental charge for it.
When I changed the electricity contract into my own name after having obtained the boletin and having the ICP fitted, I wasn't charged anything for that either, but that could have been because I didn't alter the level of the potencia.

Btw, I mentioned on another earlier thread the hugely increased electricity consumption on my bills since they fitted a smart meter. Originally I was reluctant to challenge Endesa on this, but having received 3 monthly bills now which continue to go up although if anything based on past years the consumption should be decreasing, I decided that something would have to be done. I went down to the office earlier this week and they didn't argue about it, just filled in a reclamacion online to request a revision of the meter. It was explained to me that if the revision reveals that the problem turns out to be with our wiring, not the meter, the charge for the revision would be €30 so that could be interesting, but we will see. I was told they will phone me within 2 weeks to arrange a date for the revision to be carried out at a time when I can be present.

amideislas

Only €80 for some electrician to stamp a document? Well it seems there might be increasing competition in the Spanish electricity extortion racket. That's good news (I think).

You seem to have lucked out on the ICP, too. Here, even if you don't change the potencia, they'd certainly demand to replace it, even though it's unnecessary.

I think our problems stem from the fact that we have 3-phase power, which originally, Endesa was wholly unequipped to deal with for some reason (and is the reason they claimed it was obligatory to have a 10.8Kw contract).

Years ago, when we originally were threatened with disconnection for not having the ICP fitted, (after asking them to do it for months prior), they twice sent electricians with only a single-phase ICP, which naturally, won't work. They'd just look at it, shake their head, and then leave, and then we'd get another notice of disconnection for not having the ICP installed, and the entire circus would start all over again.

Eventually, we went to the main Endesa office to try to sort it, and they told us it would be obligatory to have a 10.8Kw potencia, which would be "gratuito". Fed up with the entire ordeal, I said fine, do it, please, and get it over with.

Well, the "gratuito" installation of obligatory 10.8Kw potencia ended up costing about €650 in total with all the charges, bells and whistles, ICP, boletin, etc.

Then, due to the fact that Endesa never reads the meter, our billing was always €500 or more estimado, even though the meter reflected less than €100 per month in consumption. We had direct debit at the time, so they'd just take it from the account (even before the factura was issued). We complained constantly and even hired an abogado but to no avail, and in the end, we had no choice but to cancel direct debit to keep them from draining the bank account.

Well, it seems that Endesa has a policy that if you cancel direct debit, you are no longer entitled to refunds of any kind, so the overcharges were never refunded.

It was then that we spoke to a licenced electrician, who explained that 10.8Kw is usually reserved for businesses who normally consume much more than a residence so they naturally will "estimate" higher consumption, and more frustrating, he advised us that a 10.8Kw contract is not at all obligatory, even with 3-phase power, and that we can have any contract we want, but it was probably simpler all 'round for Endesa to say 10.8Kw is necessary, in addition to being able to charge a much higher tariff.

So, we changed to 5.4Kw, which cost another €580 in total. It looks like we'll have to do that again.

Naturally, I find this type of thing completely extortionate, but I think the biggest problem I have is that there's little recourse against it. Our abogado doesn't have any desire to fight Endesa, and has advised that it will only cost us another fortune to do so.

Fred James

There is a obligation but it's the other way round.

If you want a supply in excess of 10kw then you must have a three phase supply. The reason being that the cables are only rated up to 10kw so if you want more then you have to have more cables sharing the load - hence the need for three phases.

You can have a lower than 10kw ICP on a three phase supply but that can create a problem because you effectively get three ICPs, each with a third of the rated supply which means that they keep tripping as on a 6kw supply each phase would only allow 2kw.

We have a three phase supply and originally it did not have to have an ICP as it was on a day/night tariff. When we were forced to fit an ICP we had to eventually rebalance all the phases and upgrade to 14kw to avoid the tripping! Endesa managed to charge us €500 for that and that was just for the contract changes! It also means our standing charge is over €600/year.

If you downgrade then, to avoid this problem, normally the supply would have to be changed to a single phase which could cost extra. In fact if the prices go up much more I am seriously looking at downgrading to single phase at 9.9kw which would also get me back onto the cheaper TUR tariff.

amideislas

No, we didn't change to single-phase, they installed a normal 4-gang 7.5A circuit breaker. Available at most shops for under €50. But the ICP has to be "blessed" by Endesa, which ups the price to €150 or more - and although we paid for it, we technically still don't own it - we pay 10c per day "rental". But even more ironic, it's completely unnecessary since the digital meter has it built-in, but Endesa just hasn't gotten around to programming it.

I forgot to mention we also spent a lot - over €500 - on changing the wiring in the house to better balance the load across the three phases, so that the unnecessary ICP doesn't trip continuously.

Oh, well, aside from our Van being stolen and never recovered, this is so far only the second-worst rip-off we've experienced in our time here, and most of it's behind us now anyway. I just dread having to spend another €500 to make up for even more regulatory stupidity, laziness and incompetence on the part of Endesa. Hopefully that will be the end of it.

Fred James

That's the main circuit breaker. The ICP, if it is a three phase one, is 3 gang. Do you actually have one installed? If so, how many amps is it rated at?

amideislas

As I said before, 4-gang breaker: phase1, phase2, phase3, and neutral. 7.5A per phase, which is ca. 1800watts, x 3 = 5400 watts (or 5.4Kw) as we are contracted for (I am reading all this from a paper hubby made some time ago).

It is sealed by Endesa which apparently proves it is "blessed" ICP and cannot be tampered with. Moronically, the wires coming in and out of it are terminated on a freely accessible screw-terminal block, so it would be pretty easy to wire around it without tampering with it. More than €1000 for nothing. Brilliant.


EDIT: There is also a 4-gang "main" breaker you refer to, which is 40A per phase. The wires to and from it are huge, so I reckon it was originally designed to handle big farm equipment and the like. That feeds into the ICP, which feeds into another box in the house with individual breakers for each room.

Fred James

Our is different - just 3 gang - 20amps each.

If yours is only 7.5a per phase I am surprised it isn't tripping all the time as that gives you less than 2kw per phase. 2 rings on the cooker would be more than that.

amideislas

Well, that's 5.4kw 3-phase service, which apparently I'm going to have to further reduce. We have spent a lot on balancing the wiring, but yes, it still trips very easily. But if you read into my last message a bit, you'll realise that we've now solved that problem :-)

Yes, we looked into that, and we could change to single phase, but I'm sure that would cost at least another €500, plus €500 for the paperwork, and the bomba de pozo is 3-phase, and we'd have to replace that, too. About €3000...

Fred James

amideislas

I know I rant about this a lot, but it really eats away at me.

The spirit of the ICP and other regulations is to promote safety and lower costs to the Spanish consumer.

But in my experience, the only thing it has achieved is adding massive, senseless costs (and ridiculous, unnecessary inconveniences) that don't render it any safer or cheaper, but make it possible to impose charges that often don't reflect actual consumption, and serve only to line the pockets of Endesa.

And last but not least, no recourse. It's all perfectly legal.

EsuriJohn

Is that one or two fingers to Endesa?

Fred James

Three I think!