(Day)light robbery
 

A few days ago I bought some lights for my bike from a chinese todo shop - front and rear 2.50 euros the set. They are the usual cheap rubbish but they are adequate for occasional use. Today I was in a large hypermarket in Gandia and I was browsing in the bike section. My eye lit upon (excuse the pun) a front light absolutely identical to the one I had bought at a cost of, say, 1.25 euros a few days earlier. The price - 15(fifteen) euros! Two things occur to me - first check prices very carefully in said large hypermarket and second - who gets most of the enormous profit on the 15 euro light?

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I bought one of those lanterns, the large ones for when we get power cuts was 4 euros with batteries and fitted to check it worked from our local chinese shop, saw same thing as Pete did in supermarket at about 17 euros :D

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I have put this in another thread, but it will explain why it will always be cheaper to buy from the "Chinos" than from a Spanish shop, but what is cheaper for a person is not for the country.

Of course the Spanish shops should reduce the margin, but their price simply has to be more expensive, keeping in mind the more expensive salaries (too many Chinese people working in Chinese shops in Spain work as "voluntarios ocasionales" or supposedly as part-timers even if they work for 12 hours a day), taxes, do subject to the legal opening times, and that the money actually stays in the country...

Chinese Parasitic Model of Economic Expansion... subtitled into English...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbhN...eature=related

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It may be an aside, but I had an interesting (!) experience in a Chinese bazar today. Yesterday OH and son bought an 8 euro remote control car in the new ChinoBazar set up in the next-but-one village (Moroccan shop no doubt now facing closure...... ) ... within the daylight hours of yesterday the car didn't work. Took it back today. Much hassle later got the equivalent money in batteries and stationery. Took help from the Spanish assistant to get anywhere, though. Not sure how typical this is, but it was a learning curve for our 9 yo though.

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Of course shops such as Carrefour have higher overheads than a todo shop but for an item to cost 12 times the price is surely not justified.

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And I did said that they should reduce their margins... please do read my post.

Chinese people are playing their game from the inside. Latest one... in Spain many shops cannot open on Sundays. Some can, such as those selling newspapers... we all know this.

What have Chinese shops done about this? Simply... let's sell a small number of papers and mags, so that we can open on Sundays too... and of course we are not going to only open a small part of the shop... let's open the whole thing.

How can natives compete against that? Simply, by losing all the rights so hardly won, so they will also have to open 18 hours per day. Too many small shops have only 1-2 people working there...

Again, as I always said, foreigners are the ones to adapt. One can be used to work as a slave in one's country, but when going abroad they have to adapt to the work pattern of the host country. (Yes, before you say that, I think that the stupid midday break, 2-3 hours long in cities and any place where farming is not the main activity is stupid and we should change to normal European business times, I'm not talking about this here).

TBH, I am very scared of all extreme religious people, particularly those whose religion rewards them for killing infidels, just as I'm very scared of the economic maneuvers of the Chinese immigrants, especially as most of the money they get goes directly to China and doesn't stay in the country they live in. A friend of mine working with a Notary tells me that many clients tell her that the normal way of buying houses, flats, locals by Chinese people... is simply giving them a suitcase full of money. Scary!

:blink::blink::ohmy::unsure:

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:)

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I agree with you Fred it seems that it is the same in my area with the Chinese families. They have the same hours, live in accommodation that they rent from a Spanish landlord, the children go to the local school. I understand that it is the same with the Morocan family that have moved into the town and bought an existing a Spanish business.

Rosemary

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The Chinese shops in my area open the same hours as the Spanish ones, they used to open longer but not now
That is not always happening, at least in big cities were controls are more difficult. There are more controls now, mainly because neighbors and local shop owners who do keep the legal times call and complaint. But it's a small fine and they will open again.

They (Spanish) need to adapt or go out of business
They should not have to adapt to illegal practices, to start with. Especially when we are talking of small one-two people shops who simply cannot work all day and cannot afford to contract people. Also many Chinese work as "volunteers" or "part-timers" when they are there most of the day. That is also illegal.

Many foreigners have adopted to the UK work pattern, they come to live on benefits
Your own problem, firstly to give stupid benefit to useless natives and secondly to extend those to useless foreigners. I, for one, am extremely happy that the Spanish system is harder, and it hurst me to pay in such a stupid social system as the British one who creates completely dependant people whose way of living is having lots of children. One thing is needing help now and then, and a totally different one is to make that help as your only way of living on purpose and for always. Strange that honest working paying people put up with this situation.

The Chinese in my area are investing in the country, they are buying property which to me seems to be a long term investment
And with the crisis they pay a pitiful, whilst all the main money brought from their business is still going to China. And yes, their strategy is long term...

"A friend of mine working with a Notary tells me that many clients tell her that the normal way of buying houses, flats, locals by Chinese people... is simply giving them a suitcase full of money. Scary!"
Not my experience, all done legally, bank mortgage etc.
For what she tells me, up to 40% of the times, everything is done in cash, and many new buyers are brought by old buyers who also go to the meeting and deal with the same person they dealt with the first time.

In my own experience... maybe 15 years ago, when the "Chinos" started to open and I was still living in Valencia city, there was one in my street with a couple in their late 20's-early 30's. They were open easily 15 hours a day, sometimes they had opening controls and paid many fines. I remember going there to buy some stuff and also saw a top I quite liked. I never buy anything without trying it on first, so I was going to leave without the top. The Chinese woman was desperate and opened some curtains at the end of the shop (which now has extended till the end of the ground floor as they have bought the local at the back). They lived there; there was a mattress on the floor, a small wardrobe and another curtain covering a small corner where I guess they had a basin and a loo. Nothing to cook with but a microwave, no fridge. They were living illegally inside the shop, in a non adapted place without windows. And there were only those 2 in the shop. The man put a face as they had lost their face.
Now they have 3 kids who are always in the shop after school, they have bought 2 flats nearby, extended the shop, there are at least 10 Chinese people working there and one Spanish, the shop is still open too many hours and any change is extremely difficult as they will always blame the customer for bad use rather than accepting how poor quality their products are.

I am happy they can live in better conditions, but at the same time I worry how they managed to do so.

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Who are you to say what price is or is not justified?

Capitalism works on how much someone is willing to pay, not a "fair price"

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I am stating my personal experiences and not gossip

The whole world has to adapt to changing conditions, Europe in particular.
What are these illegal practices? in my twenties I was working 32 hour shifts in the construction industry in UK , they were known as ghosters, start at 8am and finish at 4 pm the next day.

I'm in agreement here that is one of the reasons I left UK 36 years ago.

They paid me what I wanted for my property.

I believe this is the way many Spaniards have sold their property in the past to all nationalities. This is the way Spaniards avoid taxes. The Spanish lawyers and the Spanish notaries have to be party to it.

The Chinese who bought my property owned a shop that they had paid €1.3 million for and had a mortgage in excess of €700,000. The bank was still willing to loan them 70% on my property which took them to over €1 million on mortgage. I cannot see a bank loaning that much to the operators of one business unless that business is viable on paper which it is unlikely to prove if it is syphoning money off to send abroad.
Or we have another bent Spanish bank manager.

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I am surprised that someone who is not part of the family or Chinese has so much personal and financial information about a chinese persons business.

They are not known to be open about their affairs, as in discussing property, financial, business or personal matters.

Even ones that have been in Spain ages, do not let any outsiders know what is going on, and it is one of the reasons that Chinese people do not often employ locals.

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A friend of mine working with a Notary tells me that many clients tell her that the normal way of buying houses, flats, locals by Chinese people... is simply giving them a suitcase full of money. Scary!"


Times have changed...how long since you lived in Spain! This is now illegal as it comes under the money laundering laws. If any crooked Notary is risking their livelihood doing this, they wouldn't be talking about it:huh:

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I too was surprised but the man was very open and forthcoming.

Then again it may have been all bullshit. However I do know his shop and it's a fair size ( added at edit )

Mind you I have had Chinese tenants and found them to be honest and straight forward.

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If you have a NIE, and a proof of your means (they have their businesses: shops, bars, hairdressers, beauty salons ...) you can buy cash and pay the fees. There are no fiscal benefits, but you own the place.

You can even see banks such as the CAM trying to get rid of all the flats they have got from evictions, and they offer an discount for cash payments!

Pago al contado. Sólo en el caso de que la finca esté totalmente libre de cargas en el Registro (sin hipotecas, ni afecciones fiscales, ni embargos, etc), debe pagarse íntegramente el precio convenido al firmar el contrato, pues en caso de existir tales cargas debe descontarse su importe del precio. Incluso sólo es aconsejable ese pago íntegro cuando la firma del contrato se hace directamente en escritura pública, pues el comprador podrá gozar de una protección inmediata mediante la remisión telemática por parte del Notario al Registrador de la Propiedad de una comunicación de haber autorizado la escritura.

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Fredbargate;9782310]
That is not always happening, at least in big cities were controls are more difficult. There are more controls now, mainly because neighbors and local shop owners who do keep the legal times call and complaint. But it's a small fine and they will open again.
I am stating my personal experiences and not gossip
Neither am I, I aso have my own experiences and can see some shops in big cities. I might have missed the latest controls and fines, but when I go to Spain it's not unusual to see a few out of opening times. As per my friend, she's been working in the same NBotaría for over 15 years and she's not the gossip type.

They should not have to adapt to illegal practices, to start with. Especially when we are talking of small one-two people shops who simply cannot work all day and cannot afford to contract people. Also many Chinese work as "volunteers" or "part-timers" when they are there most of the day. That is also illegal.
The whole world has to adapt to changing conditions, Europe in particular. What are these illegal practices? in my twenties I was working 32 hour shifts in the construction industry in UK , they were known as ghosters, start at 8am and finish at 4 pm the next day.
And I might been younger than you, I have also been working well over 40 hours per week, the wost job was 9 hours per day 6 days a week =54 hours, not being paid extra hours, and even getting nominally far more than what I was actually being paid. At that time I needed the job, nothing else to do. We also have shift turns, and they can be legal depending on the sector. They will always say" lo tomas o lo dejas, como las lentejas" (=you can take it or you can leave it, as with lentils).


They paid me what I wanted for my property.
So? I haven't said that they pay less than the asking price, but you, they and anybody can now pay much less than some years ago. In many cases a pitiful.

"A friend of mine working with a Notary tells me that many clients tell her that the normal way of buying houses, flats, locals by Chinese people... is simply giving them a suitcase full of money. Scary!"
I believe this is the way many Spaniards have sold their property in the past to all nationalities. This is the way Spaniards avoid taxes. The Spanish lawyers and the Spanish notaries have to be party to it.
As I said, I find it scary because of the ways they have managed to get the money. Of course many people everywhere will try to do that, but the system has changed and it's harder to do it, just as it's harder in the UK.

The Chinese who bought my property owned a shop that they had paid €1.3 million for and had a mortgage in excess of €700,000. The bank was still willing to loan them 70% on my property which took them to over €1 million on mortgage. I cannot see a bank loaning that much to the operators of one business unless that business is viable on paper which it is unlikely to prove if it is syphoning money off to send abroad. Or we have another bent Spanish bank manager.
We have so many!!! :lol: But, as long as they can give proof of their business (and who knows how much they declare), and have a NIE, they can buy cash.

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You described yourself as Posh :nod: in another thread (something 'posh' people never do) so I presume you are wealthy and would never worry about prices, I'm sure you'd have paid more in F&M's for bits and bobs when you lived in 'Posh' areas of London :rofl: So don't worry about the brits living on scraps or buying cheap tat in Spain :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Uncouth oiks that they are; I spit on them.

There was an article on the Blacks Leisure group going under in the UK, a company that grew up with the Boy Scout movement ect but who are competing with ebay and pound shops often selling the same gear for a much lower price.

The song was "Video killed the radio star" now it would be called "The internet killed the local shop"? This is the reality of 2012 UK and I've no doubt that the same will hit Spain as its online shopping infrastructure catches up with us :(

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evamar please read what I have written

In your 6 day week I would work 96 hrs and still work on the 7th day

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That takes us back to the start of this thread, The Chinese are asking much less than the Spanish for the same products therefore the Spanish need to adapt. That also goes for other nationalities in other countries.

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I think you are a bit confused

I am not "posh" in any way and have never described myself as posh

And you are completely missing the point. I was just explaining that capitalism does not price things "fairly" but based on what someone will pay. Read any marketing textbook

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Sometimes adapting to the incomers way of doing things is not possible even when a livelihhood depends on it, and eventually can damage the economy even more.

A lot of Chinese business are worked in by the whole family, quite often paying no wages because they live together in the same house.

It is not possible for a european family unit to live the same way.

i for one would not want to see a backward step,whereby Spanish couples have children for cheap labour as they need them to work for almost free, because they all eat from the same pot.

You make it sound so easy, have you any idea how much Spanish labour costs are,

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Of course it is - we simply choose not to! and that's our choice and so, ultimately, puts the prices up.

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"Before I lived in the posh bits of Barcelona and London. You get to see a few more realities down here"

I'm well aware of what capitalism is, worked in it and done rather nicely from it over the years :D

Back on track. I admire the work ethic demonstrated by the Asian community, they often work longer hours operating at lower profit margins than many of 'us' would be prepared to do.

A young Indian couple took over a failing local store (small village, one shop) and opens 07:00 - 22:00 every day of the year, if they are not there one of the family is. Prior to their take over the shop was run by a local English couple, 09:00 - 18:00 and 10:00 - 12:00 Sunday, next to no stock, miserable, crazy high prices and all they did was moan about how bad trade was. The new couple run a good range of stock, well priced and if you ask for something they don't have I guarantee its there within a couple of days.

The Chinese/Asians work long and hard and don't waste any money, good luck to them.

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:rofl:

Do you work for a tabloid newspaper? You do a great job of twisting quotes around

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It is not so many years ago that we did.

I believe in the near future, hopefully after I'm no longer here, we will have no choice.

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And before your time, 5 years olds were climbing up and cleaning chimneys and most people didn't even had a loo inside their house.

And my mother was working some 10 hours 6 days per week when she was 12, missing lots of school days, for almost nothing. And even before that, as soon as she was able to help my grandmother, she was working for free. Then she was also exploited until there were laws against child working and limiting the weekly working hours. And there were then many people looking for potato peels in bins and boiling them to have something to eat, and my mother lost 4 of her 8 kids because of the hard conditions of life. As JFS said, families had lots of kids firstly because of the hard life conditions they had to assume that many will die, and secondly because those who did survive will work and be extra earners. What is that to do with the current situation here?

What is your point comparing past times with the present??? :confused:

Each time has it's own regulations, 40 hours per week is now almost standard practice in most jobs everywhere in Europe, even the UK, and I for one wouldn't like to go back at my grandmother's time regarding work and life conditions... I guess you have your pension, so you are quite protected against the current situation, but not sure you would like your 5 year old grandchildren to go and work because that was normal 150 years ago here and surely in China kids are working now too?

So, back to the point, if they come to a country where legal weekly working hours are 40 per week, and there are regulations regarding the opening times for shops, THEY have to adapt. They can sleep on the floor on the factories in their country and make 20 hours per day every single day if that's what they understand is normal. But the Chinese immigrants cannot do here the same as they do in China.

Precisely the problem is that we don't care of the condition of the people in China and many other places while we have money to buy their stuff, and rich pigs from the Western and rich pigs from their own countries make fortunes exploiting those people because they don't care about their lives and most are seen as prescindible for the common good.

It is Western's fault for closing everything here because they are cheaper and letting them to supply us... and then make sure that we feel that we have to buy things that we don't need and making stuff with a short life so that we'll have to buy more and more... that's where you can start appealing to the very few people who actually move the world's economy and ask them to bring back factories to the Western... then we'll see how bad our work conditions get, but at least you can talk and compare to China. At this point we are not really producers, everything comes from China even if we put a Western label. We are consumers. But this cannot continue anymore, we cannot spend money and even those who still have some know better than to do it, big spending and credit have past their days. Really rich people have no problems, never had.

And then we have silly people saying that Spain and other countries have to reduce salaries and make themselves more competitive... keep your pension and tell that to high earners... most people are killing themselves to keep a sh**ty job paid well under 1K euros with sh**ty conditions because they are the only working person in their families. Whatever their experience and education.

I know that the situation is bad, but seeing it made even worst by immigrants who are living in the same conditions as we did 150 years ago, with illegal competence to local business and then sending away from the country most of the money they get here...

If we follow your point of view, we'll be back to the point where lives were unimportant and we simply fight for survival. We are already starting, but it will far harder with so much world population.

Unfortunately I will see it, most of you are actually lucky pensioners.

:frown: :thumbdown:

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You makeit sound so simple,but it isnot....

And that is the reason that there are thousands of pensioners in Spain (especially in rural communities)without pensions, because the whole family lived together and farmed the land, not earning a wage or contributing to the system.

Unlike the UK if you dont contribute you dont draw out at the end.

The family lived together, and I dont deny that in the past they lived well, but then the need for money grew, as electricity was installed, you cannot pay the bill with a few dozen eggs, you know.

Also inheritance taxes have to be paid on inheriting a property, so you had cash poor heirs having to pay a load of taxes,just to stay where they were.

So no we have a lot of old people who worked incredibly hard thoughtout their whole life, but who did it in the way you are advocating, so now their life is a stuggle just to eat.

So how simple it is to say that people dont live that way by choice, because it is an unsustainable way of life, and I thought that poeple who have lived in Spain for a long time, would have seen the result of an outmoded way of life in a modern country.

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Well said Nena..............I agree wholeheartly.

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That only works when others buy their stuff... when we all stop wasting money, the system collapse. Many people now are forced to buy only the strictly necessary. And many who woulnd't be happy to have that couple's life a couple years ago, would now accept any condition... at least in Spain, not so sure if you can get money for doing nothing.

I cannot see that the only solution is to go back 150 years and simply survive.

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Anyone see on the Spanish news a week or so back the Chinese shop owners demonstrations about their not being allowed to sell alcohol ?

I don't know the details or the reason why this is the case, but they obviously consider that they are not being treated equally or fairly.

In view of the already reasonable prices of alcohol in Spain, a price war between Chinese and Spanish would be interesting, though I would have thought that the Spanish, as producers, would surely already have the upper hand with regards to most types of alcoholic drinks.

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That is not the only solution, but people in the West will have to work a darn sight harder than they do today or the roles will be reversed and the West will end up servants of the East.
My personal experiences of 100+ hours a week are less than 50 years old.
The world now has a population in excess of 7 billion, most of whom are starving or near to it. A lot of these people are seeing how the West lives via TV and internet and they want a slice of it, most will settle for a smaller slice than the average westerner that is why the Chinese and others have moved here.

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My advice is to buy a plot of land in Spain, preferrably one whether the weather isnt so harsh and that has fertile land

Make sure the building is well insulated. Then stock it out with mod-cons

Then aim to live the way your grandparents did. You will have a big advantage because you will have washing machines, electricity, running water etc. You can do all this for about 100K. Then you'll have a head start for when the people start heading back to the villages which I can see in the next 10 years

Spain has a huge natural resource that it has ignored through the boom years. Thousands of wonderful villages surrounded by fertile land. Use the wealth people have built up to move out the cities and back there. The quality of life will be way better than being paid misrable wages in an ugly neighbourhood of the city - and eventually you and your children will be happier

I'm seriously thinking about it, as long as I can take my internet ;)

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Yes, so is my mother's experience.

OK, let's make sure that everybody's life, everywhere, is sh**. At least the working people. That will certainly help.

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From what Ihave seen the chinese seem to have "todo"shops, part stationary, tools, clothes, wool, cleaning stuff, gifts etc, and the Spanish shops Iknow that have these type of shops dont sell booze either, so I dont know what they are on about........

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So could you please tell me that if you are all living the good life, how will you pay the bills for the intenet, and pay inheritance taxes when the oldies die, and how can the family contribute to the SS to be able to get a penison when they are too old to shovel S**t.

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Westerners have only had a "luxurious quality of life" over the past 50 years or so at the expense of the rest of the world

The rest of the world are now catching up and so Western consumption will drop. It may never go back to 2005-7 levels, ever. The reason is because there are not enough natural resources to allow 7 billion humans to have all the mod cons, energy etc.

This is it folks, you will never have more money than you used to have. So use what is left to invest in a more self-sufficient lifestyle. Noone is going to pay you thousands of pounds/euros per month anymore for doing work that Chinese or Indians can do for a tenth of the cost.

This is a paradigm shift. Change your way of thinking and you'll be fine!

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Really:blink:

What old tat from China does anyone in the West need?

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Well yes, that is how our quality of life will decrease

Internet will be OK, the price here will drop and drop.

Inheritance taxes arent relevant, you only pay them on the assets that are left - and dont include your main residence.

Healthcare will be a big issue, it will get worse. Pensions, well, families need to work together and look after their predecessors. It doesnt cost a lot to have your parents living in the spare room especially if they look after the children :)

Anyway, we'll see a move back to extended families, 2-3 person households need more money to hire childcare, cleaners etc which they wont have

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I am not talking about looking after the old that will be a minor consideration.

I am talking about the young, you are advocating a small holding system.

2 people buy what they can for 100k,as you suggest.
They work the land andeat well, anysuplus will not be sold to the neighbours because they will be doing the same thing.
Taking the suff to market is a differnet ball game, need to be self employed and paying into system (with what money)

Land sustains one couple.

2 children are born to couple,

They are an expense, (with what money)

Land sustains 4 people

When kids are old enough they work the land, they marry the neighbours kids.

Land sustains 6 people,

Each couple have 2 kids.

Land sustains 10 people

So now we are up to the grand children.

Each grandchild marries, but some go to live with in laws, but 2 grandchildren couples remain.

they have 2 children each.

Land sustains 14 people, by now the mod cons that were bought are just about knackered and need to be replaced.............house needs an extension unless we go the whole hog and have multi couple bedrooms like eskimos or whoever.

Now the oldies die, after being looked after by the family, are they going to be buried in the veggie patch, or what as funerals have to be paid for in cash.

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It doesnt work like that. Population growth is actually negative in Spain meaning that the land need not have to support more and more people

Obviously the first set of land should be able to support an extended family of say, 10. Then as people marry out, then that means new investment/assets. Expecially if your children marry well

And as young people move out then you can sell a few cows and buy more land for them if you want to.

This is how the system works the world over - and has done for the past 20,000 years.

I should add that with negative population growth and limited credit, assets become much much cheaper, so you may find that 10 cows buy you another 2000 square meters of land.