Nige

It just doesn't appear to work like that - thanks to the Law and the climate pervasive in Spain. For example, women who have some kind of marital difficulties and who may think they are badly 'treated' have this Gender Law that is totally weighed against men and for women (equal rights or human rights ?) and courts seem to ignore so called evidence even if such evidence existed. A false 'denuncia' made by a woman especially woman with children, seems to automatically carry weight and a court finds against the man. One sided and unjust.
Maybe in Spain men have mistreated wives but the rule of Law and the way it is being interpreted means that women now have moved to a position of 'legally backed vengeance' - hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

As one of the comments made to the El Mundo article says:

" La ley, que protege muy bien a las víctimas de la violencia de género no ha sido, sin embargo, capaz de proteger con la misma eficacia a esas otras víctimas, casi todos hombres, que bajo falsas acusaciones son triturados por la ciega ley y ven de pronto toda su vida incomprensible e injustamente destrozada. Cuánta razón tenía Goya cuando afirmó que “los sueños de la razón producen monstruos”. Con cuánto valor y a veces dolor, con qué nobles propósitos y buenas intenciones se consiguen logros tan importantes como la Ley contra la violencia de género, y con cuánta saña, falta de escrúpulos e impunidad puede, en ocasiones, ese mismo logro ser usado por personas inescrupulosas como terrible arma arrojadiza contra personas buenas e inocentes."

chulo

So a women can simply walk into a Police station showing no signs of physical abuse an accuse her partner of violence, I don't know Spain that well, so maybe I'm wrong, but without physical evidence, how can you substantiate an allegation in court.

What incentive is there for a defence lawyer to side with the opposition, surely any brief would defend you or are you suggesting all lawyers also side with the women.

Veleta

I don't think the lawers have much choice in the matter. Everyone, regardless of what crime you have committed or how hopeless your case is, has a right to a legal defence. The court will appoint a lawyer if you do not have one of your own.

Burnt in Baza

You've a lot to learn about women and the law in Spain Churlo. To secure legal action all a woman has to do here is denounce the man. He is then guilty until he proves his innocence. In fact in every area one is guilty until one proves otherwise here.

This is why many women and Guardia hate the way the law is biased in womens favour, it leaves it open to abuse.

Burnt in Baza

If there are children involved the woman gets the house, car and bank balance, the man gets 5 minutes to collect his personal belongings. I was trying to avoid putting this level of info out, bet you can't guess why.

We all need things to change and the law to be made non gender specific, this is the only fair way to deal with allegations from either party.

fionamw

Is that the case throughout the legal system in Spain? Guilty until proven innocent?

That's the nub of the issue.

chulo

Exactly, so why would the defence lawyer roll over and accept the decision of the judge before a hearing and presentation of the defence.

Even in the Spanish legal system if a lawyer believes the course of law is not being enforced he can complain to high authorities.

Corruption is rife in Spain, but that is mostly encouraged by money and profit, not likely in the criminal courts, after all one only has to look at the amount of Policia involved in corruption, I have yet to read judges taking bungs in simply cases of violence towards a female by her partner.

Although there is not a story, I'm well aware there could be a situation, but also its possible pigs can fly, we just haven't proved it yet.

chulo

The fact your in that position and I am not pretty much shows who needs to learn and who does not.

From little I no a Denuncia is simply a complaint, similar to one made in the UK, its a simple record of a possible incident for the authorities to begin an investigation.

From what I understand in Spain it isn't taken too seriously by most as it is a tool used to complain and happens often with no further action being taken.

There is nothing stopping anybody making allegations in either the UK or Spain, it happens in most divorce cases, what gives it merit is the facts put by both parties and who sounds creditable.

The law is not for the Guardia to question, I would suggest if there was any substance to this the legal guardians of the Spanish law would be the ones commenting and not the Guardia.

Nige

If you read again the EL MUNDO comments as given above by Relampago you may get a better idea Chulo.
There is an interview with the Family Judge - Francisco Serrano Castro in Seville on ABC (the local newspaper) dateline 30/11/09
May be worth reading this:
http://www.abcdesevilla.es/20091130/...911292349.html

bear in mind that he sits as a Judge in Seville dealing with the results of the PSOE Law

pete_l

Don't see why not. In Britain it happens all the time - so why not in Spain too?
Judges are predisposed to assume that allegations of violence against women are true and that any defence can be turned over with the old "... well, he would say that, wouldn't he" response.
Accusations can be made from events that are alleged many years ago, so no marks or scars are necessary - only a plausible story .... and a half-decent lawyer, skilled in the art of handling these cases.

sabarda

OK, for those defending spanish law, just imagine I am female and I say without any proof that any of you guys did just beat me up. You are immediately considered guilty, even if you are in the opposite corner of Spain, you go to jail, and after that they'll give you the opportunity to demonstrate that you are not guilty.
Would you like this?
Maybe you should know also that after the law being approved, cases of domestic violence have been increasing, showing that this is without any doubt a crap law.

There was a case in which the man had bills from shops and hotels in a different city miles away proving that it was impossible for him to agrede her, but even that he had to spend month in prison before the judge considered proved that the wounnd on her were self-inflicted.

So if you think that the way to solve a problem is to criminalise a whole group of people, I'm sorry but you an idiot and you should give yourself the nickname of Mr Adolf.

I´m sorry but I grew up thinking that we all have the same rights.

Nige

sabarda - interesting that domestic violence has risen because of this 'positive discrimination' Law of President Zapatero.
It's not only physical violence but also mental and that is very difficult to quantify. It is a tragedy that this Law has been manipulated to such an extent that it is seen as so unfair. If the intention of the Law is not being properly administered then it is up to the Government of President Zapatero to make it work or scrap it. Meanwhile courts will continue to act the way they do presently and cause potential grief in relationships that could have been resolved by other means.

On a totally unrelated matter but concerning courts and procedures, in UK a case brought by a Ms Bibi Giles against her gynaecologist Angus Thomson that was dealt with in the Civil Court has just been withdrawn and all expenses to be paid by Ms Bibi Giles. She had been gunning for £50,000 and now faces a very large bill for costs. It makes extraordinary reading - but strange things happen .....
In this case Ms Bibi Giles had not had her allegations of abuse by Mr Thomson taken up by the Police or the Medical Authority. So she pursued her mad cap scheme in the Civil Court after paying £500 for the privilege of wasting the court's time and further humiliating an innocent man.

One wonders what would happen in Spain if this Ms Bibi Giles had her way ?

Some reports of the case can be read here and other related pages:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...fantasist.html

chulo

No.

What I would like to see though is some evidence that this is the case, as with the original OP's story, they are simply words and generlisations, in which most situations lesson the merits of ones arguement.

Try it in court, see how much time a judge will give it.


Anybody can enter a shop or hotel, purchase goods and services without requiring ID.

Yet the judge ruled him innocent and he is free, in most cases a term in prison before court can occur, it happens all over the world and is part of the judical system, Spain is not unique, the UK has thousands of people held on remaind who will possibly be innocent.

Whilst I don't support Nazism, Adolf Hitler was no idiot.

Having an opposing view point is not a sign of an idiot, being unable to prove the opposing arguement with facts, figures, pie charts (For Rugbymatt) and evidence and only being able to comment opinion is the sign of one big holy son of an idiot.

We do, but problem is people lie, which is why allegations need to be taken on merit of each individual case and problem is there are more macho men beating women than there is women getting one up.

After all one has too assume that for a women to do this to a man, the man must have, whats the word, rubbed her up the wrong way.

I'd say to that good on them, they can't beat you physically so may as well take your freedom.

Luckily though for every idiot that has pi99ed off his girlfriend, few have ended up in prison.

JLFS

I am speechless................

chulo

Did someone say something ?