Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

And lucky to live in Southern Europe and have an excellent standard of living with a brilliant public health service and very cheap and accessible education

If you factor in health and education, amideislas would quickly realise that actually the US is the most heavily taxed place on Earth. Given that healtha and education are pretty essential whether they are provided publically or privately, people in the States have to pay way more on these services than Europeans do

e.g. Spaniards spend $2,600 on healthcare per person each year (on average), Brits spend $3,600 and Americans $9,200

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Don't worry CM, I included your location as Northern Europe:lol: Of course France and the top part of Spain are excellent too.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Other countries enjoy decent infrastructure without paying nearly half (or more) of their earnings into a black hole.

And as for healthcare, we don't have the best, we have the cheapest. Suffering a 7 hour wait for a low-level intern put a cast up to your knee for a broken toe is cheap, not ideal.

But it is a lesson the likes of the US can learn from. Few Europeans are without any form of healthcare, nor does it break the bank when they do get it.

True, we live a very high standard when compared to Africans, some Asian countries, Middle-east, etc.

But when compared to the 'first' world, we have a different standard of living, not necessarily better - or worse - when compared to lower-taxed (and more successful) countries. Depends on how you measure 'standard of living'. Europeans typically have less disposable income, but enjoy more government-provided benefits (funded by taxation).

For example, the US, Canada, and to some extent, the UK, are much more consumer-driven and trade-oriented economies. A much larger share of taxes are collected from business, which enjoys a large market of spending consumers. Individuals are taxed less, and therefore have more disposable income to spend.

On the other hand, European individuals have a much higher tax burden (unless they're in a low tax bracket, as most try to appear, but then they still pay the world's highest VAT).

Europeans therefore have higher costs of living and ultimately, businesses who employ them have higher costs of conducting their trade (except of course, for the largest employers who have the political advantage of employing thousands of heavily-taxed taxpayers).

...All of which limits European competitiveness in the world, resulting in never-ending high unemployment which results in greater percentage tax consumption and lower tax generation, only adding pressure to collect more tax to support it.

... which suggests yet another reason why our economy is more tax-based and less trade-based than others. High taxes are necessary to support our poor competitiveness while maintaining the "high standards" you refer to. At some point, the money runs out and people have to live with less and pay more for it...

... ... ... Hmm... that sounds eerily contemporary...

Out of necessity. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

By "we" are you talking about Spain?

Because I have been to hospitals in Barcelona, Malaga and Asturias many times and this is simply not the case. The facilities were very dated in Malaga but apart from that, 10 out of 10 always. Most we ever waited is 30 minutes, and the treatment when having 2 children at comletely different ends of the country is absolutely first class. I couldnt even imagine it being better

And then you may want to compare survival rates for cancer, heart disease, infant and maternal mortality etc. US does terribly. Europe and Spain does very well on a tiny portion of the budget

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

I have to agree, Spain is surprisingly good. Although I've been fortunate enough to only have made use of the system for minor incidences (knock on wood).

Much of the rest of Europe and the UK is rather dismal at providing 'comfortable' public healthcare services. Long waiting times, minimal attention (unless of course, you can afford private insurance, and then you have the entire staff's attention).

I do defend the NHS a bit, however, because it has the massive burden of being perceived as "free", which means people will consume/waste it without a second thought. And that keeps it mostly overloaded all the time. With that in mind, it's damned efficient.

Don't mean to nitpick, but that's contrary to most studies. US clinics and hospitals have substantially more funding (it's goddamned expensive there) so naturally, they have greater access to specialists and latest technologies.

Study Shows U.S., Japan, and France Have Highest Cancer Survival Rates

Study Of 31 Countries Finds Wide Variations In Cancer Survival Rates

American Cancer Patients Live Longer Than Those in Europe; Higher-Priced Cancer Treatments in US Offer Better Survival

World Health Rankings

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Sorry, I was referring to the rates of people who die from cancer, heart disease, from giving birth etc. in each country, but you are right that is a measure of how healthy the population is, rather than at how good the treatment is

Which raises the question on whether a health system should have the goal of maintaining a healthy population, or being good at treatment ill people

In the States, ill people make a lot of money for other people. The more ill people, the better for the economy

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

I'd argue that some level of affordable healthcare for all should be the goal. Europe does a much better job of this than the US. However, it's a myth that most Americans have no healthcare. The vast majority do, and most have access to world-class treatment. But it's a different set of headaches.

I have a brief story about an American (a nurse in a US hospital) who visited us, had a fall and cut her head open, and had to be rushed to the hospital (in Mallorca).. long story short, she sat on a trolley for 2 hours before anyone would look at her, and then left her laying on the trolley in the hallway for 4 hours after stitching her up...

...BUT the price of the entire treatment was shockingly cheap (a few hundred Euros). She said that in her hospital, if she treated any patient as she was treated, she would be fired (and the hospital could be held liable for reckless endangerment). But she couldn't argue with the cost. She expected it to be many 1000's.

Having said that, of course the US needs a universal healthcare system like the NHS or otherwise. But a universal healthcare system - even when 100% supported by the population (not the case in the US), is an institution that takes decades, or even generations to successfully establish. Even if the US decided tomorrow to have an NHS, it would be 20 years before it would be fully operational.

And lastly, the notion that there's some a conspiracy to make people ill just to make money is laughable. The reasons the US healthcare system is so expensive are many, structural, R&D, lawsuits, intellectual property, etc.. but Please, there is no top boss sitting around figuring out how to make people ill. I was really beginning to have sincere respect your views. Let's try to keep it that way.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

It's not just infrastructure and not all Europeans pay half their earnings into a black hole. Your gross salary also might be higher in one country, so although the tax rate might seem high, you could still be better off. There are a lot more things to consider like the percentage of population who have access to fresh water. What's the point of a brand new motorway, when 60% of the population can't even afford the basics and the other 40% are swimming in money?

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Well, there you go. More of the same won't make it better.

The European system was built from the ground-up to benefit the politically-elite. It is very much tilted toward the top tier. The evidence is all around you, hidden in plain sight.

Do you think it's just an anomaly that American companies have been setting up shop in European countries and taking advantage of those tax loopholes?

European mega-corporation free-rides are by design, not by accident. Traditionally, these loopholes have quietly benefited politically-elite major European corporations who employ 1000's of heavily-taxed European taxpayers (big German, Dutch and French corporations actually top the list of those who pay no tax in Europe).

Apple and PayPal and Amazon and many others found out they could get those breaks, too, without employing many Europeans or being part of the European political machine. And those tax breaks are far better than anything they can get in the US, because US taxes are far higher on (big) business than individuals. US business tax rates are amongst the world's highest. But American consumers have money and spend it, so it's a great place to set up a business, even if the taxes are higher. But to do business in the US, you are obliged to pay US business tax. Seems fair to me.

Need I mention where the bulk of Greek bailout money went to? (hint: it wasn't to Greeks). No surprise there. It's the way the system works.

When Europeans finally realise that government is supposed to work for individuals, not individuals as Europe's tax-crop, then things will change. But until then, it's the average individual that will always bear the largest burden, whilst the elite go untouched.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

You are right except for one important revision. This isnt how Europe works, it is how the monetized liberal capitalist markets work, worldwide

Europe needs to reject free market neo-liberalism and go back to their socialist roots

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Perhaps we do have too many class distinctions; Poor, lower-middle-class-middle-class, upper-middle-class, moderately wealthy, wealthy, insanely wealthy... Inspiring jealousy and despicable class-envy. Besides, it's not fair that one should be any better off than another. In an ideal world, we are all equal, after all.

Historically, socialism facilitates just two simple classes: the working class and the ruling class. It helps 'equalise' the vast majority of the population into one homogenous class, so they have no need to be jealous of each others' economic status and whinge endlessly about how unfair it is that someone can prosper more than they. Plus the added benefit of diminishing personal responsibility for their lot in life. The government assumes more responsibility for that, and so as long as one follows the rules defined by the ruling class, you need not worry about much.

And the ruling class, well, they're immune anyway, so it doesn't matter how rich they get, and that's certainly nothing you need to concern yourself with...

You may be on to something there...

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Actually Apple, PayPal and Amazon employ many Europeans. Apple has been in Cork since the 70's and they are going to open a Data Centre not far from where I live. These companies all pay tax (are happy to) and employ people who pay tax, but it's obviously lower and more attractive for both sides.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

No it doesn't. You are just spouting the kind of dogma that right wingers always spout

Socialism is about creating a fair society, giving all children the rights to basic needs such as health and education and only redistributing wealth to help those at the bottom have the same rights and opportunities as those at the top

It doesn't ban rich people or anything like that, but sure in a fair socialist society then perhaps a CEO would be earning 500k per year rather than 50 million.

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Of course they employ a few people, but it's a mere fraction of Volkswagen, Deutche Telekom, Phillips, EDF, etc..

But that's not the point.

The Netherlands: German companies' favorite tax haven

The 'who's who' of European tax havens

German companies avoid billions in taxes

Luxembourg ‘abetted’ companies in avoiding taxes (Current EC president and previous leader of Luxembourg Jean-Claude Juncker's home).

Do you really believe these things have nothing to do with European politics or the political elite? Or, considering how widespread and common this has been for Europe's largest and most politically-connected businesses, do you not find that scapegoating American companies is perhaps a bit convenient?

Re: Cash still rules in Spain
 

Of course that's the intent. It always is. It's just naive and idealistic.

The result is almost always as I described. We're headed that way right now. The political elite and those at the top have all the influence. The average person pay the lion's share of taxes, suffer the bureaucracy, and the average person suffers the most when things go wrong.

Really, look at the past 20 years of European politics and economics, and then tell me that's all made-up bollocks. It's one of the reasons why the UK wants serious reform or they'll leave: The UK have never really penetrated the European 'good-ol-boy' network, and refuse to be dictated to by it.