Bull Fighting
Jul 4th 2009, 6:55 am
#31
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Re: Bull Fighting
How would you translate "Picador". The closest I can get to it is someone who uses a food processor!
Jul 4th 2009, 7:28 am
#33
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Re: Bull Fighting
One swallow doesnt make a summer and for every live ring there are probably a hundred dead.
I doubt if your nearby ring could be paid for from sale of seat tickets alone,maybe partly from your taxes,local and national govt subsidies, EU funds and maybe even the odd pop concert.
If it was still as popular as many moons ago, it would most likely be able to pay its own way.
Also, as in most things, there are a few fat cats who know how to screw the system from every direction for their own personal benefit.
I doubt if your nearby ring could be paid for from sale of seat tickets alone,maybe partly from your taxes,local and national govt subsidies, EU funds and maybe even the odd pop concert.
If it was still as popular as many moons ago, it would most likely be able to pay its own way.
Also, as in most things, there are a few fat cats who know how to screw the system from every direction for their own personal benefit.
Jul 4th 2009, 7:33 am
#34
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Re: Bull Fighting
I think we agree on the fact that its only a few big cities for the well to-do on special occasions that still do the business.
You mention annual ferias are sold out, but a sell out once a year even at exorbitant prices will hardly cover the annual running costs of the fancy modern arenas, let alone begin to pay for them, plus cover the cost of all the participants,the raising of the bulls and all else involved.
Not sure how much you travel around Spain, but from what I have seen almost every smaller town has a deserted delapidated bullring for which there is little or no use apart from possibly an odd stall or two on market days.
The fact that bull-fighting is in crisis and needs very heavy subsidisation to survive tells its own story I think.
Jul 4th 2009, 8:10 am
#35
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Re: Bull Fighting
I´ve written about this on another forum in response to your reply. I´m sure this a practice run to sort out the more aggressive of the breed. I wouldn´t go to watch it.
Jul 4th 2009, 8:19 am
#36
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Re: Bull Fighting
As marisol says, "Anyway, i think that discussing about this with people who like it its a waste of time, you never get an agreement".
I guess that I should come out as someone who has enjoyed bullfighting. Rather like those games of Roman yore, there is a certain degree of "mob" hysteria which one cannot but help (allowing oneself) getting caught up in. When I lived in Barcelona, a large group of us would bring sandwiches and wine, and make a pleasant afternoon of it. (Yes, yes...not so pleasant for the bull!).
I don't regard myself as some sort of Alpha++ guy, but there is a certain "rush" experienced when the bull first appears. The bull is not regarded as a "victim" but as an adversary. And the sight of blood is not such a bad thing in this age of total sanitation. I was raised on a farm, where death was all part and parcel of the process. These days, if one sees any blood in the pre-packed Sunday joint on the shelf at M&S, one recoils and puts it back.
And all this talk of "fairness" (or lack of) is foolish. It is a man vs a bull. How exactly can one make match up such mis-matched inequality. Much better to concentrate energies on real (human) suffering. One day bullfighting will surely be a thing of the past. I shall not miss it. But as it's legal, I like to see and I want to feel.
I also enjoy pulling fish from the water with a hook through the lip. The shock of being airborne must be the inverse of "water-boarding" for us. Horribly cruel. And so unfair.
And talking of animal cruelty, on a distantly related note, I see that in 2007, dogs sent 368,000 persons to emergency rooms in the US, with 44,000 being facial injuries. 33 persons were mauled to death, with 17 being children.
I guess that I should come out as someone who has enjoyed bullfighting. Rather like those games of Roman yore, there is a certain degree of "mob" hysteria which one cannot but help (allowing oneself) getting caught up in. When I lived in Barcelona, a large group of us would bring sandwiches and wine, and make a pleasant afternoon of it. (Yes, yes...not so pleasant for the bull!).
I don't regard myself as some sort of Alpha++ guy, but there is a certain "rush" experienced when the bull first appears. The bull is not regarded as a "victim" but as an adversary. And the sight of blood is not such a bad thing in this age of total sanitation. I was raised on a farm, where death was all part and parcel of the process. These days, if one sees any blood in the pre-packed Sunday joint on the shelf at M&S, one recoils and puts it back.
And all this talk of "fairness" (or lack of) is foolish. It is a man vs a bull. How exactly can one make match up such mis-matched inequality. Much better to concentrate energies on real (human) suffering. One day bullfighting will surely be a thing of the past. I shall not miss it. But as it's legal, I like to see and I want to feel.
I also enjoy pulling fish from the water with a hook through the lip. The shock of being airborne must be the inverse of "water-boarding" for us. Horribly cruel. And so unfair.
And talking of animal cruelty, on a distantly related note, I see that in 2007, dogs sent 368,000 persons to emergency rooms in the US, with 44,000 being facial injuries. 33 persons were mauled to death, with 17 being children.
Jul 4th 2009, 8:21 am
#37
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Jul 4th 2009, 8:50 am
#38
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Re: Bull Fighting
jjh: Errr... I thought we all agreed that it is both cruel and unfair. I would give no credence to willful cruelty. But...we have become so desensitized to suffering that it's sometimes difficult to see the wood from the trees.
Personally I believe that the sight of blood is a "good" thing in that it reminds us of our true roots, so to speak. And this is important.
I think one strays onto difficult territory when trying to compare the value of one animals life against another's. Is the life of the bull really equal to that of the matador? As a human being, I would say absolutely not.
Roman games were a good way of using up Christians. Those who disprove of bullfighting should try and comfort themselves likewise, as this is a good means of using up matadors.
Personally I believe that the sight of blood is a "good" thing in that it reminds us of our true roots, so to speak. And this is important.
I think one strays onto difficult territory when trying to compare the value of one animals life against another's. Is the life of the bull really equal to that of the matador? As a human being, I would say absolutely not.
Roman games were a good way of using up Christians. Those who disprove of bullfighting should try and comfort themselves likewise, as this is a good means of using up matadors.
Jul 4th 2009, 8:53 am
#39
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Re: Bull Fighting
Obviously there are famous characters at the big venues and always have been,to entertain the better off.
However I get the impression that at one time it must also have been within reach of the common man in the thousands of now deserted smaller bullrings throughout the country.
I often wonder what caused such a massive decline in the business outside the big centers.
Maybe a combination of several factors like rising costs and prices,alternative entertainment, or even the civil war could have set it back in many ways?
Probably need to ask the locals on that one.
Jul 4th 2009, 9:03 am
#40
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Re: Bull Fighting
One of the problems is the cost of tickets.
For the Malaga Feria in August the best seats are €100
For the Malaga Feria in August the best seats are €100
Jul 4th 2009, 10:01 am
#41
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Re: Bull Fighting
Its on the telly most saturdays and sunday afternoons, ive looked at it afew times, so much blood, ive seen him make a mess of the sword going in afew times, like half in , at the end what a bloody mess, And the horses that come in and just start stabbing it , whats that about. I surprised they dont give out the odd crossbow to the audience to have a pop.
Jul 4th 2009, 12:24 pm
#42
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Re: Bull Fighting
Enough sentimental bull about bullfighting
Does Ricky Gervais not realise that the animals speared in a ring have a far better life than those bred for hamburgers
A bull bred to fight lives wild on the range, in the herd, untouched by man, eating what it wants, getting laid occasionally, until, when it is 5 or 6 years old, it is rounded up and taken to town to fight and die. The Spanish will say, “to fulfil its destiny”, but let’s not get silly.
You who are so quick to anthropomorphise the bull and weepily to share its pain, try reversing the process. Imagine not that the bull is a man, but that you are the bull. Imagine that you are given the choice between living to, say, 35 years of age, mostly in a shed, in massive single-sex groups, feeding on silage (prison is a fair comparison) and then queuing with your mates to die at the hand of a shaven-headed thug with a bolt gun . . .
Or then again, imagine living free in thousands of acres of land, eating whatever you want, shagging who you like, and then, when you are perhaps 70, being asked to fight to the death against a Spaniard in pink tights.
someones reply to the above
Bullfighters are wannabe men making everyone believe they are courageous. The truth is, bullfighting is not a fair fight. The bulls' horns are filed and they are drugged (making them disoriented) before entering the ring. I live in Spain and bullfighting is the shame of this country.
Juliw, Valencia, Spain
Does Ricky Gervais not realise that the animals speared in a ring have a far better life than those bred for hamburgers
A bull bred to fight lives wild on the range, in the herd, untouched by man, eating what it wants, getting laid occasionally, until, when it is 5 or 6 years old, it is rounded up and taken to town to fight and die. The Spanish will say, “to fulfil its destiny”, but let’s not get silly.
You who are so quick to anthropomorphise the bull and weepily to share its pain, try reversing the process. Imagine not that the bull is a man, but that you are the bull. Imagine that you are given the choice between living to, say, 35 years of age, mostly in a shed, in massive single-sex groups, feeding on silage (prison is a fair comparison) and then queuing with your mates to die at the hand of a shaven-headed thug with a bolt gun . . .
Or then again, imagine living free in thousands of acres of land, eating whatever you want, shagging who you like, and then, when you are perhaps 70, being asked to fight to the death against a Spaniard in pink tights.
someones reply to the above
Bullfighters are wannabe men making everyone believe they are courageous. The truth is, bullfighting is not a fair fight. The bulls' horns are filed and they are drugged (making them disoriented) before entering the ring. I live in Spain and bullfighting is the shame of this country.
Juliw, Valencia, Spain
I am anti-taurine, but what mania with the bulls...You speak of other cruelties, as the slaughter of seals in Canada, the suffering of the geese in France or the slaughters of whales of the Japaneses
Last edited by Relampago; Jul 4th 2009 at 12:31 pm.
Jul 4th 2009, 12:31 pm
#43
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Re: Bull Fighting
There is certainly a very strong downward trend in its popularity.
According to a survey 78% of Spaniards said they had no interest in bull fighting at all.That figure rose to 83%for ppl.in late teens and early twenties.
Only 7% said they were very interested.
It reflects the trends I have seen throughout the country with many deserted bullrings virtually everywhere.
Some of the Spanish themselves have even organised demos.against it.
It is banned in places like Argentina,Cuba and even the Canaries Isles.
There are a few very large city venues where it continues on special occasions in modern arenas, but these are also used as venues for other activities such as pop concerts etc. maybe to help subsidise it.
One report says bull-fighting is in serious crisis and receiving heavy Govt.financial support to survive at all.
It also mentions a bull-fighting subsidy of 200+ euros per bull per year from the EU.which I find quite surprising, in view of the fact that the vast majority of Europe is strongly against it.
So it appears that every single EU taxpayer is paying at least something to help it continue.
I wonder how many are aware of that fact?
According to a survey 78% of Spaniards said they had no interest in bull fighting at all.That figure rose to 83%for ppl.in late teens and early twenties.
Only 7% said they were very interested.
It reflects the trends I have seen throughout the country with many deserted bullrings virtually everywhere.
Some of the Spanish themselves have even organised demos.against it.
It is banned in places like Argentina,Cuba and even the Canaries Isles.
There are a few very large city venues where it continues on special occasions in modern arenas, but these are also used as venues for other activities such as pop concerts etc. maybe to help subsidise it.
One report says bull-fighting is in serious crisis and receiving heavy Govt.financial support to survive at all.
It also mentions a bull-fighting subsidy of 200+ euros per bull per year from the EU.which I find quite surprising, in view of the fact that the vast majority of Europe is strongly against it.
So it appears that every single EU taxpayer is paying at least something to help it continue.
I wonder how many are aware of that fact?
Jul 4th 2009, 7:29 pm
#44
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Re: Bull Fighting
If I had the audacity of generalizing about the brits (like you or the person that makes it against the Spaniards in your article) I would create many dislikes in this forum. In Spain the 10 % or less of the population is fond the world of the bulls. And without being a fond of the bulls, I believe that Europe (or any citizen from Europe) they are not the most suitable to insult Spain for something like that. Because here there are many more things than the bulls, and because we don't begin two world wars
I am anti-taurine, but what mania with the bulls...You speak of other cruelties, as the slaughter of seals in Canada, the suffering of the geese in France or the slaughters of whales of the Japaneses
I am anti-taurine, but what mania with the bulls...You speak of other cruelties, as the slaughter of seals in Canada, the suffering of the geese in France or the slaughters of whales of the Japaneses
I appreciate it is a Spanish tradition and as it is rapidly losing its popularity maybe best let things take their natural course.
News to me that we started two World wars,but must confess we are usually keen to join in and get a piece of the action if anything kicks off.
Anyway you guys didnt do too badly having your own little ding/dong, sending out a few invitations to likely participants also.
Its all in the past Relampgo,move on in peace and let sleeping dogs lie.
Jul 5th 2009, 1:08 am
#45
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Re: Bull Fighting
I have never been or will ever be interested in any animal sport, be it fishing, bull fighting, fox hunting you name it, but one thing I am seeing is that as a brit and this is a generalisation that yet again we are pushing our values and views on to a culture that sees animals differently.
We have moved (or moving in my case) to live a different lifestyle and we should accept that lifestyle for the good and the bad. Many young spanish do not see the point to the tradition and that is what it is pure tradition and as time passes things alter as will bull fighting, but we have little right in forcing our opinions.
Educatation, humanity and respect wether it is to a fellow human with different views or to your next meal, think where it comes from and manybe just maybe we as a race may change.
I am not a veggie freak, eco freak or need to be sectioned under the mental health act but a full bodied, meat eating member of humanity that does try to see things from other peoples shoes.
We have moved (or moving in my case) to live a different lifestyle and we should accept that lifestyle for the good and the bad. Many young spanish do not see the point to the tradition and that is what it is pure tradition and as time passes things alter as will bull fighting, but we have little right in forcing our opinions.
Educatation, humanity and respect wether it is to a fellow human with different views or to your next meal, think where it comes from and manybe just maybe we as a race may change.
I am not a veggie freak, eco freak or need to be sectioned under the mental health act but a full bodied, meat eating member of humanity that does try to see things from other peoples shoes.
