the breakdown of society?
 

Well, someone had to post about the riots. Even if those of us who live in Spain feel a long way away from them. Is this the beginning of something much bigger? Maybe the final realisation that Globalisation is at an end in it's present state. People standing up for a just cause. Or just a few greedy stupid people using any old excuse to steal things and burn stuff?
(Stands back;))

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

so when did this breakdown start?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I am really saddened by what I see, especially as it has no spread to my home area, Birmingham.

I don't think this has anything to do with just causes. These are the low lifes in Britain coming out to play. They aren't demonstrating against anything, they have no cause, they are just interested only in looting ..... and for some reason totally ruining other peopls lives. Now the real criminals are joining in, and taking advantage of the situation.

Now that it's spreading it needs to be stopped immediately in a way that these lunatics understand, and that unfortunately means resorting to the water canon, the army and if necessary rubber bullets. You can't talk to them, they won't listen .... and the more they get away with it, the more of them will come out of the woodwork.

Meanwhile the Police seem powerless to stop them, peoples homes are being destroyed, businesses ruined .... and all so that someone can get a new 50" TV without paying for it. The ultimate cost of all this will be horrendous.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I agree with you Mitzy except you added rubber when it should have been left out.

Graham

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

That is what happens with the vast majority of riots and troubles. It is not the normal, ordinary people of the country causing the difficulties but the thick in the head types with mob mentality.

Rosemary

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

So what was the story of the shooting that was supposed to trigger this event.

I caught a report that said the police hadn't bothered to talk to the family of the shot guy, and there was something about the police saying he was the victim of a gun battle where he shot at the police, but this was later denied.

The Met has got previous for shooting people in VERY questionable circ's, and has previous for being less than racially sensitive.

When I see the mayor's assisstant shrieking about the criminals doing all this, and then blustering when the above points were made to him, I start to wonder about where the blame lies.

If the Met have shot someone without proper grounds and then lied about it, it will be a nice change from clubbing old men to death and lying about it, or murdering Brazilians and then lying about it, or fitting up people and then lying about it, or beating people halfto death and then lying about it...

I'm sure there's a pattern there if only I could put my finger on it.

With the recession, the current crisis, people short all the time, the heat et al, wouldn't an intelligent person see the way this family was treated, if true, was like juggling with flaming torches near a ruptured petrol drum.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Personally I think the Met are too free with their bullets as it is.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Spot on.

Little short of harsh measures has any hope of working against these mindless turds of society with little or no decency
and a total lack of respect for everyone.

The softly softly, throw more money at the problem, attitude of todays nanny state clearly does not work.
The problems begin at home in their younger days and continue with todays weak school discipline.

Although organised gangs are now getting involved, many of those in previous days have been as young as 12 or 13 yr.old.

Sad also to see the likes of Livingstone and the Guardian rag justifying their actions and using the opportunity to do some electioneering.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I know some of the affected areas rather well, and I've lived in them for years. And I'm going to say something from my intimate knowledge of those places which will probably not be aired on the politically correct news channels, and maybe it shouldn't be.

The great majority of the rioters were black people, from areas where a high proportion of black people live. Those areas also have the highest crime rates in the land - and the highest rates of unemployment and poverty.

An army of sociologists will write long reports, the war cabinet has met in Cobra, the police have lost control of the streets in those places, and little children will suffer as they follow their terrified parents out of burning homes.

Do I know of a solution? No, I haven't got a clue.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Ah yes, what we need is some more shootings. Let's see, we have the ruptured petrol drum blazing nicely so let's put a few rounds into the big tank over there now.

Oh masterful, simply masterful.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Regardless of whether a mistake was made last week in Tottenham, this situation should not have been allowed to escalate to the stage it is now. It's small business owners, shop workers and even flat tenants in various areas who are suffering now.

The scenes shown on Hackney yesterday afternoon was very frustrating. The rioters were very nervous, and ran as soon as the police made an advance. But the police made no effort to clear the street, held back as much as possible, and were seemingly quite content to see toe-rags light fires in the street. No attempt made whatsoever to snatch ringleaders and quell the disturbance. These scenes were obviously seen by gangs in different parts of London, who now realised there was no effective law and order. Hence their ability to loot and burn at will. The only time they came up against effective resistance was from local vigilantes eg the Turkish community in Dalston http://twitpic.com/635ffl

I've heard some people say the police are scared of the criticism they'll get in the Guardian newspaper, and so are "working to rule". If so, it is pathetic. People are going to get killed as this thing carries on, never mind the businesses and jobs that will now disappear.

Meanwhile Cameron,Clegg &Co have been worse than useless. I think I'd sooner have Frank Spencer in charge. :thumbdown:

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Spot on. Screw political correctness, and let's look at the facts. Like it or not, areas with high immigrant populations are more likely to riot. Whether you take the attitude that that is because poor black areas are more ground down, or because you think that all immigrants are scum, those areas are riots just waiting to happen.

So, an intelligent police force would realise that the shooting of a black man in such areas needs to be handled very carefully, and the family kept in the loop. A bit, I guess like you'd want to be treated if your son had been shot by the police.

If the police have shot a black guy, and the allegations that the shooting is questionable, and the family have been treated badly, then the blame for lighting the fire should be laid far and square at the doors of the Met, where it can join the pile of incidents where the Met has abused its power with fatal consequences, and then lied about it.

There's a lot of people in the riot who have comitted criminal acts, and as such should be tried for it. Don't worry tho, there's precious little danger of there being any coppers in the dock tho.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I agree. Having lit the fire, the police have failed then to control it. As you say "But the police made no effort to clear the street, held back as much as possible, and were seemingly quite content to see toe-rags light fires in the street. No attempt made whatsoever to snatch ringleaders and quell the disturbance."

The fire they lit is out of control. A cynic might suggest that the government are keen to crack down on protest, and allowing something like this to get so bad before stamping it out will enable the government to draw up yet more powers to prevent us from having a say when we are dissatisfied with the way the gang of thieves is running the country.

The police are scared of criticism? PERHAPS IF THEY DIDN'T KILL CITIZENS QUITE SO BLATANTLY AND LIE ABOUT IT THEY WOULDN'T GET CRITICISED.

In my experience, people aren't afraid of the truth unless they have done something wrong.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Come on people, do some of you actually think that what happening now is because of one guy being shot by a policemen last week???? :rofl:

This is just about one thing. The hoodies of this world have got an excuse to run riot and they are doing it. Photographing themselves coming out of electric stores so they can prove to their mates that they were big enough to do it. We are seeing the underlying aggression of the UK finally out on the streets for all to see, and it's bloody frightening because it seems to have proved so far that no one can do anything about it.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Mitz, the blazing petrol drum isn't down to just the one match, but the idiot who struck it shouldn't walk away unpunished.

Of course the idiots who then see the riot as an excuse to go shopping with a half brick instead of a credit card should be punished. However, if the governments get us in the shit, remain unaffected themselves and use our money to bail out the rich and powerful while leaving the citizens with nothing (or what they perceive as nothing) then they too are to blame.

You don't get riots where everyone is earning good money.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Oh yeah, Mitz, don't complain that the criminals are taking photos of what they are doing. That's all good, as it save the police a lot of time.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

The England-Netherlands football match tomorrow has been cancelled (quite understandably). One wonders how London will be able to cope with the Olympics next year..

On a more positive note, local people are getting together to clean up the affected areas. If you follow twitter you can see a lot of info by searching for the tag #riotcleanup

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Yes, fair enough .... but the hoodies in Birmingham and Liverpool couldnt give a toss about the guy in London who was shot. Nor do any of the rioters in London outside Tottenham I'd guess.

When were the last serious mass riots in the UK? Wasn't it the 1980's, under a Conservative Maggie Thatcher Government?

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

But the same point applies. It's not dissimilar to the petrol drum analogy. With one drum alight, if the other drums are damaged, the sparks wil set off the other drums too.

That's why handing out comments suggesting the Met start shooting rioters is a tad reckless.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Stevie I absolutely agree with what you are saying:thumbup: Police have lost control of the streets. This is what political correctness has done.

Many of those whose businesses have been looted are foreigners too...does the Guardian only support blacks on benefits!

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

[QUOTE=bil;9546789 Like it or not, areas with high immigrant populations are more likely to riot.[/QUOTE]

IMO the majority of the rioters were British not immigrants. You have mistaken ethnicity with immigation.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

... and this Utopia is where exactly? :confused:

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I blame it more on a lack of direction at the top. I don't have a lot of time for Maggie, but she always made sure the forces of law and order were around for possible conflicts. She wouldn't disappear without remaining in contact either! Tony or Gordon too, may have took holidays but at least they left the bruiser Prescott around (if only he was in charge now!). But it seems that all the major players - Cameron, Clegg, Boris Johnsonn etc were all sunning themselves at the same time, and the lack of leadership has been abysmal.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Yeah, I was going to use the word black, but then I remembered that there have been asian rioters. You are right, it wasn't the most accurate word to use. I suppose I should have gone with 'non reflective'.

I know there were a lot of whites in the riot, the point was that areas where there is a high population of non reflective people, there is a higher tendancy to riot IMO.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Ah, now is this the usual code for 'If we could only act out our racist fantasies, the world would be a better place?'

You are quite right to say that the guardian is of course only printed for a readership of black one legged communist lesbians, which makes me wonder about the awards and readership it commands. No matter, no matter.

So, political correctness has caused all this? Please explain how?

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

There's a crisis, so all the top people go on holiday.

Brilliant, simply brilliant. Prescott may have been a monumental twat, but he said he never allowed that to happen.

With the current crisis, wouldn't you think that intelligent government would....

ah yes, I'd overlooked that bit hadn't I?

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Maybe when you explain where this place is (to quote you)

"You don't get riots where everyone is earning good money."

Do you live there?

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I think the present Government is useless, they have lost the plot in everything. Not a great message going out to the rest of the world in the countdown to the Olympics:(

I watched a programme years ago discussing the afro-caribbean community. Many of them thought by being too lenient in schools etc. did not do them a favour. On the caribbean islands schools are very strict and one said when she came to London the math standards were lower. A few claimed they were never punished, mainly ignored because the Teachers feared claims of racism.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

I knew there would be comments about the police inability to cope.
I knew most of the sh** thrown at the police would be thrown by Bil too:D
If one cardiac surgeon made a serious mistake there would be ructions ...sure. and that surgeon would be investigated and if found to be negligent...struck off.
But we would never in a million years blame all surgeons for his mistake and then call them all butchers!
Why don't we apply the same rules and the same understanding with the police.
One bad decision by one officer in extremis becomes, in the public's mind police brutality.
It's a brutal world. We want our police to be effective and yet we're happy to send them into the fray for us with no powers at all. For fear of the public they aim to protect, their management and the government tie their hands. And we're happy to throw accusations at all for the mistakes of a few.
Why are we so supportive of the military fighting an arguably unjust war abroad and then kick our equally brave police in the teeth day after day??
What if we suggested that we disband the police and leave all you whinge-ers to it. See if you'd make a better job.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't was never so appropriate.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Tell me, when times are good, and people have money in their pockets, do you get riots then?

Or do they tend to be where there is hardship and opression?

I appreciate that's a tough question, but it's a good attempt to shift focus away from a valid question as to how riots are cause by political correctness.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Don't get me started on the USELESS education system, where a big chunk of students leave school illiterate and innumerate. (Mind you that's been going on for many decades, so I'm blaming government full stop, not one particular party.)

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Angie, the reason why we are critical of the police is because they have a long history of racial abuse, physical assult and murder of citizens who had done nothing, and they show no sign of changing.

Now, if every time a police officer killed a citizen, it was investigated properly and openly, and people were satisfied that a fair job had been carried out, and the guilty punished, then we would have more trust in the police.

Were cardiac surgeons recklessly killing patients and lying continually about what they had got up to, then people wouldn't trust them either.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Very true. Young kids these days use the word respect (respec') very liberally without knowing the true meaning. They all know their rights but none their responsibilities.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Saw this elsewhere about the Duggan shooting.

"The ballistics report will provide a forensic analysis in order to get a clearer picture of what happened, what shots were fired, and in which order.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has confirmed that a non-police gun was discovered at the scene and a bullet was found in an officer's radio.

But it is refusing to comment on a report in the Guardian that the bullet was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by 29-year-old Duggan"


At the moment everything is speculation. Duggan is portrayed as a villain by some, a saint by others, and as a human being by his family.

The police have started off on the wrong foot, by not treating the family with the respect due them, - doubly so because of the victim's colour, the state of the area and all the memories of Steven Lawrence.

They claim that he shot at them. If he did, then he can't complain that he is now being fitted for a shroud. If tho he didn't shoot at the police, and they are lying yet again, then it will be proof positive that no great change has ocurred in police practice in the Met after all.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Where are the parents of these kids, many were only in their early teens? Discipline starts at home and when that breaks down the trouble begins.
A large proportion of families in inner city areas have absent fathers. This leaves the mother with having to earn money, run the house and bring the kids up. Difficult enough in prosperous areas, almost impossible in poorer inner city areas.
The kids in these areas hang around the streets and drift into gang culture and that leads on to criminal activity.
It seems to me that the current situation is an escalation of that as a result of organised gangs creating the disturbances that draws in other youngsters and then seizing on the opportunity to loot the shops etc.
It would not surprise me to see the same faces appear in different locations throughout the Capital when all the CCTV is looked at

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

When you shake hands, or touch your hat, it says 'respec'.

I always understood that was the nature of any polite greeting. It means the same as salaam aleikum. Peace be upon you, and by extension, I hope on me too.

It's sometimes used without meaning, as when someone says 'good day' thru gritted teeth, when it means something entirely different.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

So basically you are saying that these areas should be treated differently to say the area in Eastbourne where I lived. Of course we can carry on that arguement by saying that Mayfair has many very rich people living there so they should be treated differently or we as immigrants in Spain should be treated differently to the spanish. Most of the problems caused are because people are treated differently and become either annoyed or use this tolerance to their advantage.
Please do not tell me I do not know what I am talking about, I spent too many years as a shop steward with most problems caused by minorities whether nationality, cultural or sexual and trying to help all of these just caused more pressure on our acceptance.


Graham

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Just to throw another idea into the mix. Is there any coincidence in the news from the money markets. Who might like to deflect world news from the second financial crisis? Who stands to gain?
In the 80s I was a bit of a hippie. I well remember how the Stonehenge (so called) riots were used to deflect press and public attention from the Westlands affair.

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Wouldn't surprise me either. So we can expect to see the police making lots of arrests, and most of the rioters serving time inside, - that is of course providing the cells aren't full of custard pie throwers....

Re: the breakdown of society?
 

Dunno, but I bet that after this, the rights of peaceful demonstrators will be seriously reduced.