There's a lot of historical accounts that have survived. Not all are going to be accurate or honest, but there are so many records that confirm this that we have to give it serious consideration.

The West had no right to be in Jerusalem or the holy land, and the crusades were just religious inspired wars of conquest.

sneaky !
that takes us nicely back to Fred's list
if they won't listen to your preaching lop their heads off and install your own

I just feel that in any debate, balance is all. You can't justly criticise what goes on in one religion without comparing it to others.

For example, how does the actions of islamic terrorists compare to the condoning of child abuse by the entire Catholic church?

why not bil, everyone else does so why not me, why not everyone.
the jihad by islamists is because they want to see a one faith world, they see the no10 bus being late as a slight against their religion, they blow themselves up believing there are 70 virgins waiting for them on the other side, but havent clicked yet that the so called religious leaders sending them into oblivion never go with them to experience the wonders of the afterlife.

surely even you cannot be saying that the extremist activities, blowing people up, etc in the name of Islam is to be condoned or even compared with child abuse within the Catholic church. and what happened to all those celibate priests who father children on their flock?

war is wrong no matter in whose name it is waged, so lets turn all the weapons into ploughs - but just remember that when someone renages and keeps a few weapons and comes calling because he thinks your land is easier to plow and grows better crops that you have no defence other than your religion.

There comes a time to move on and ranting about the Crusaders, what the Brits or Spanish did in the name of their empires and how many countries have transgressed into others over the past few thousand years doesn't really help.

It is fair enough to bear history in mind and learn it's lessons where possible, but by far the most important thing is the present and the future, so constant repeated obsessions with digging up old bones don't really help the World to make peaceful progression.

What I said was, " You can't justly criticise what goes on in one religion without comparing it to others."

One sided criticism lacks some validity. By all means criticise what they do, just bear in mind that we are no angels either. If you want a more up to date example, I give you Iraq. Thanks to a lying PM who has been able to lie us into the Iraq war without ever having to face any kind of justice, we went in and trashed the country, when there were far cleverer ways to get rid of Saddam that were far less likely to have triggered the same bloodbath.

The allied bombings of Iraq killed an estimated 600,000 civilians. As the orders were given Bush and Blair both prayed to their Christian God to help them in their task. Makes the 3,000 people who died in 9/11 look like small change.

Only 70 years ago the Pope gave Franco permission to lead on holocaust on "all reds and anti-Catholics" in Spain which was estimated to be 1 in 3 of the population. Fortunately the blood thirsty plan stopped way short of that.

All religions are stupid, even more stupid are the men who kill in the name of religion. After all, religions are just invented rules to allow men to find excuses to kill, abuse, denigrate, repress and torture whoever they feel like.

And I say men because religion is rarely kind to women

we should have taken the ONE solution

one man
one sniper rifle
one bullet
one dead dictator

it would have saved alot of bloodshed, alot of waste, alot of trashed historical relics

if he was really lucky he would have become a martyr, but he would be leading his followers into the afterlife instead of sending them in front of him

the critique on Bliar by Matthew Parris in Saturdays Times was excellent, not sure that it is available for general release though

Spot on. I would just add that if we don't understand the past, then we are doomed to repeat it.

600,000 civilians, and that is ongoing as the sects continue to kill each other.

Scant wonder they compare us to crusaders.....

What right to the UK and US have to kill leaders they dont like anyway?

And this has nothing to do with democracy. Hamas were democratically elected and yet the UK and US denounce them as "terrorists". Looking at it objectively the UK and US are the worst terrorists on the planet!

Nope. Shooting him could have opened up all sorts of problems. All we needed was to send the Kurds and the southern Iraqi arabs some of those nice agricultural advisors from Hereford, as well as a selection of agricultural equipment capable of delivering a turnip from a mile away, while denying Saddam's men the ability to move much or have air cover a bit like in Libya.

True. The jews deserve all they get from Hamas. Had they treated the Pals fairly from the start, they wouldn't have the problems they have now.

I agree with most of that. Even the non-religious in the West seem unable to understand that a Muslim life is just as important as a Christian life. A bit closer to the surface, an Irish tinker's life is just as important as the landowner's life on whose land the tinker has parked his caravan.

Feeling uncomfortable? So am I, but it has to be true, otherwise we're racists, or Nazies, or just dumb.

then what the F are we doing paddling around in Libya ! ! ! ! ! !

Libya is a sovereign state, Gadaffi is the leader of that sovereign state, whether elected by distorted figures or by any other means.

one day it may come back to bit one on the bum when someone doesnt like the way the UK or USA or France et al are being run that the REBELS will be supported from outside.

shades of France supporting Bonnie Prince Charlie against the English.
just in those days the Scots didnt have the oil Libya has.

and where would we be if the REBELS had failed ! ! ! ! !

when i did my first anti-terrorist and riot control course, we were told we would be issued with a bullet and told to fire at a particular individual. one of the 12 bullets would be live the rest blanks. the other side wouldnt know who actually killed their leader - unless they realised that one of us was wearing a marksman badge.

the GDY's went into Vietnam as "technical advisors" and look at what it gave them, but it was a possible opportunity for the agricultural salesmen from Hereford to test a few new products.