if Spain believed that you were here more than the 182 days it would be up to you to prove that you weren't

petrol station receipts etc, hotels, -anything to prove that you weren't in Spain

perhaps €260 is a "bargain" for the family but is €520 such a bargain - especially if one or both of you had no work for a month or two ??

No its not a bargain, especially as the OH only works very part time

But its swings and roundabouts. We dont pay council tax here because we rent and if we rented the same flat as we have here in London then it would cost 3 or 4 times the price

I don't think you have that quite right.
It isn't a matter of you being stopped by an official at the border it is as I distinctly recall when entering France from the chunnel and from France to Spain on the E5 at Irun there were plenty of CCTV cameras looking at everyone when they paid their toll

so no one should be under any illusion there are "no borders", its just that sometimes you can't see them

but that surely is not necessarily the "price you have to pay" for living where you are, for the lifestyle that gives.
what it is is coming to an accomodation with things in where you want to be with the person(s) you want to be with

which is why I am in Spain also.

We could live anywhere in the world. We live in Spain because we love the people, culture, cities and cuntryside. It helps that we can afford better accommodation here than in London for example because it contributes to the quality of life. And we can work less here because life is less expensive

Despite the economic problems, this is still an amazing place to bring up children. Mainly because everybody in Spain loves children, they are well accommodated for, get lots of positive attention and are part of every aspect of life, they are never excluded

There was a UNESCO survey recently that placed Spain near the bottom out of around 30 developed countries for how much the government helps children and provides what they need e.g. education, eliviating poverty, access to childcare etc, but when they asked children how happy they were, Spanish children came third, while the US and UK came bottom

No point having lots of money if your kids are unhappy

I tend to lurk on this site but always love the contribution from cricketman - if not just for the rose coloured glasses that he/she uses to make his/her point. "we can afford better accommodation here than in London2 - why make a comparison with London when residentially it is the most expensive part of the UK to reside.

Just for some clarification - the survey referred to was by UNICEF and Spain came fifth and the UK 21st. Top was Holland and this was some of the commentary - The Netherlands has always been a very child-centred society," says Paul Vangeert, professor of developmental psychology at the University of Groningen. "In particular, there is a lot of focus on young children."

Much of this, he says, comes from the relationship that Dutch parents have with their children. And, from the fact that less pressure is put on them at school.

One of the strong points of the Dutch family, he says, is that it is very open and communicative. Relations are generally good between parents and children and they can talk about almost anything.

But, he says, the downside is that children almost rule the family.

"It's almost a caricature that children are the ones that decide what happens within the family," says Mr Vangeert. "Their wishes become so strong that parents have to work very hard to give them what they want. Sometimes, there can be a lack of balance between the happiness of the child and that of the parent."

The Dutch are famous for their liberal attitudes towards drinks, drugs and sex.

"Because parents are more relaxed, the dynamics of the problems are less severe than in countries where they are seen as more of a serious issue," says Mr Vangeert.

I wonder why they came top???

The bigger question is whether the Netherlands has a problem with drink, drugs and sex compared to those countries where children are unhappy

I should think the answer would be no.

I compared Oviedo and London because I would not consider living anywhere but London in the UK.

I grew up up north, it is grim I tell you

So are some of the areas in London.. and Spain.. There are also very beautiful areas Ooop North..

I will leave it to others to comment on wrongful attributation but would like to comment on the "how much the government helps children".
Surely the prime mover(s) in helping children must be the parent(s). Nothing to do with government, who are not there when the child falls, needs help etc.

If you can afford to keep children in the manner that you want them kept then fine - have children.
But if you still have children and cannot afford them don't go bleating on about how The Government doesn't provide the right services, support, facilities and money for children.
That is all paid for by everyone, with or without children, because it is the way our society is structured.

Too many people "have children" and then expect the state to provide them with everything. They do not expect to provide anything themselves. They become a means to an end, bigger (free) house, more benefits, more allowances. But not giving anything back themselves.

Please do not expect children to get things by right.

tks

I didn't think Netherlands had a drink, drugs, sex problem compared with places like the UK where it is A PROBLEM.
They amongst the Northern Europeans are more relaxed about life and well being. They appear to have less "issues", less hangups, and perhaps more importantly - less interference in their lives by authority.

Children can be unhappy in any country, it is caused by the way they are treated by their parents and by other adults. That is what becomes imprinted on their psyche and forms the basis of how they will react to and treat other people, including children, when they are older.

and statistics taken from apathetic or interest driven individuals makes for "interesting" reading, just it doesn't really have any truth in it.

SO WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH GOING "AUTONOMO" ?? Are those who do more likely to beat up on their kids or to give them help and support in their education
??

That's all very well, but in a culture where both parents need to work 40-50 hours per week just to be able to afford a small mortgage, then how can you expect them to be able to always put their children first?

If only the people who could truly afford to have children actually had them, then there would only be a few thousand people having children every year

Parents nowadays have to institutionalise their children from birth with many being put into nursery for 9 hours a day so the parents can go and earn money to be able to "afford" them. Thats not very healthy for anybody. The government can ease that load if they choose to

I agree, but then why are US and UK children so unhappy? I would argue it is because society is against them and ultimately wants them to grow up so they can make money to buy stuff

Oh yes, the thread has gone completely off topic

well that fits in with the NHS model of reducing the number of midwives available to an increasing number of people becoming parents.

whilst not specifically true, those who can afford to have children usually limit the number they have, what has been planned for.

those we hear about who have 10, 12, from different fathers are generally those who are on benefits, not necessarily counting the pennies because a benevolent state will provide. In the same way as 16/17yo unmarried mothers have a child just to get a flat, house, but also to get away from their parents. They are looking for someone to love, someone to love them, in the way they haven't.

As discussed on another thread - if the decision was to put a child out of the car on a roundabout the same way as they do dogs - would they do it ??
Perhaps the Govt should be providing more free support, food and kennels and street walkers for dogs rather than children.

`

not quite right.
the kids are brought up from birth to WANT without understanding the ramifications of that word.
society isn't against them, it is their parents who are against them, they want them to grow up fast and cease to be a drain on the money, provide for themselves.

But the US has an autonomo society, where entrepreneurs can get a head start, borrow money, go back broke and start again.

all societies use children to gain more. Even in places like Somalia they keep having children who stand little chance of living so the parents can get more food from aid agencies. Less mouths to feed would mean more food for those there - but that isnt an economic view. So govts are coerced into sending food to help children who are a means to an end - more money, more food.

a jaundiced view perhaps, but then I have been a parent, now grandparent, and may be seeing things with more open eyes.