Applying for residency
Nov 12th 2019, 4:55 pm
#16
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
Yes, the town hall can provide a list of documents you need, but on the day, it is the person behind the desk that determines whether you qualify.
We all know that medical insurance is needed in the absence of a UK S1 form, but there are many documented cases of insurance policies being rejected as they do not cover pre-existing medical conditions. How much income do you need? The law specifically states that there is no general figure that is acceptable - it depends on the circumstances of the applicant.
Depending on where you are it is a potential nightmare of bureaucracy.
We all know that medical insurance is needed in the absence of a UK S1 form, but there are many documented cases of insurance policies being rejected as they do not cover pre-existing medical conditions. How much income do you need? The law specifically states that there is no general figure that is acceptable - it depends on the circumstances of the applicant.
Depending on where you are it is a potential nightmare of bureaucracy.
Nov 13th 2019, 6:50 pm
#17
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2017
Location: Alicante
Posts: 928
Re: Applying for residency
The notion of changing residency like a pair of socks in order to circumvent a post Brexit 90 day rule is bizarre and fanciful in equal measure.
Nov 13th 2019, 10:38 pm
#18
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2017
Location: Lanzarote
Posts: 94
Re: Applying for residency
The rules for residency differ between countries, especially the UK. Also, it depends on what you mean by residency. There are really two types of residency situation. If you spend more than 90 days in Spain, you are legally obliged to register as a foreigner who wishes to spend more than 90 days in Spain. The normally accepted meaning of residency is that you are tax resident and pay taxes in Spain. The rules that determine tax residency is that if you spend over 183 days in one calendar year in Spain you are tax resident (there are also some other reasons why you may be deemed tax resident). This rule is not connected with the rules on registration for stays over 90 days, as that refers to the continuous periods whereas the tax rule is for non consecutive days.
So, you can be in a situation where you are tax resident in Spain, but not resident under the 90 day registration rules if you only ever spend no more than 89 consecutive days in Spain.
Are you confused yet? If not it gets worse. The UK rules on tax residency are entirely different and extremely complicated. It is possible to be considered tax resident after spending only 16 days in the UK. That's before we start talking about "ordinary" residence and "not ordinarily resident" and on top of that the UK has a thing called "domicile" which also affects your tax situation.
So, to answer your question, yes, it is possible to be (tax) resident in two countries. If that happens, you do not necessarily pay tax twice on the same income, but if you do, the amount paid in one country can usually be offset against the tax paid in the other country. Usually one of the two countries will be classed as your primary tax residency and there is another whole set of rules to determine which country has first pick of the tax due. Luckily HMRC in the UK has a tax treaty with Spain (and most other countries) that helps sort out exactly where your income is taxed.
So, you can be in a situation where you are tax resident in Spain, but not resident under the 90 day registration rules if you only ever spend no more than 89 consecutive days in Spain.
Are you confused yet? If not it gets worse. The UK rules on tax residency are entirely different and extremely complicated. It is possible to be considered tax resident after spending only 16 days in the UK. That's before we start talking about "ordinary" residence and "not ordinarily resident" and on top of that the UK has a thing called "domicile" which also affects your tax situation.
So, to answer your question, yes, it is possible to be (tax) resident in two countries. If that happens, you do not necessarily pay tax twice on the same income, but if you do, the amount paid in one country can usually be offset against the tax paid in the other country. Usually one of the two countries will be classed as your primary tax residency and there is another whole set of rules to determine which country has first pick of the tax due. Luckily HMRC in the UK has a tax treaty with Spain (and most other countries) that helps sort out exactly where your income is taxed.
We are still UK tax residents as we sold a big house in UK last year. We're going Spain tax in April so the missus can start singing in clubs
Nov 14th 2019, 7:12 am
#19
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
That doesn't apply in the Canaries. Only need to become resident if you spend 183 days a year here. And you can stay UK tax resident for a few years after that.
We are still UK tax residents as we sold a big house in UK last year. We're going Spain tax in April so the missus can start singing in clubs
We are still UK tax residents as we sold a big house in UK last year. We're going Spain tax in April so the missus can start singing in clubs
https://www.tenerife.es/portalcabtfe...-union-europea
The rules on foreigner registration and tax residency are governed by Spanish and EU law.
Last edited by Fred James; Nov 14th 2019 at 7:16 am.
Nov 14th 2019, 8:54 am
#20
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 20
Re: Applying for residency
Fred, I didn't quite understand the bit about registering as a foreign resident means that "All it does is give you the right to stay for more than 90 days. You retain that right unless you spend over 6 months out of Spain. So, you can see that it is possible to be registered, but never exceed the 183 day rule for tax residency." So you lose the right to stay for between 90 and 180 days unless you stay more than 183 days, in which case surely you would be required to be tax resident in Spain. So I'm not sure how it would be possible to remain registered and still never exceed the 183 day rule. Maybe I just read that wrong.
Seems to me the 90 day rule and the 183 day rule are effectively the same thing. Sign up for the former and you can't escape the latter!
Seems to me the 90 day rule and the 183 day rule are effectively the same thing. Sign up for the former and you can't escape the latter!
Nov 14th 2019, 10:04 am
#21
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
It’s a hypothetical case and it’s unlikely that anyone would want to do it but it is possible.
Say you spend 100 days in Spain and then go back to the UK for 180 days. You come back for 100 days and then go back to the UK for 180 days. Etc etc. You will never spent 183 days in Spain in one calendar year.
AsI said, it’s very unlikely but my point is that the two systems are separare because the rules are different. Anyway, the rules get more complicated after Brexit.
Say you spend 100 days in Spain and then go back to the UK for 180 days. You come back for 100 days and then go back to the UK for 180 days. Etc etc. You will never spent 183 days in Spain in one calendar year.
AsI said, it’s very unlikely but my point is that the two systems are separare because the rules are different. Anyway, the rules get more complicated after Brexit.
Nov 15th 2019, 1:03 pm
#22
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 20
Re: Applying for residency
Yes, the trouble is for those of us wanting to winter over here for health reasons - 100 days in Spain isn't enough!
I'm not sure about your calculations though - 100 days in Spain followed by 180 in the UK would be 280 in total, leaving the next 85 days of the calendar year in Spain, which means you would have spent 185 days in Spain.
It does look as though for anyone not wanting to become tax resident in Spain, the options are either a visa of some kind or finding a 3rd warm country to spend the other 90 days in.
I'm not sure about your calculations though - 100 days in Spain followed by 180 in the UK would be 280 in total, leaving the next 85 days of the calendar year in Spain, which means you would have spent 185 days in Spain.
It does look as though for anyone not wanting to become tax resident in Spain, the options are either a visa of some kind or finding a 3rd warm country to spend the other 90 days in.
Nov 15th 2019, 1:14 pm
#23
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
After Brexit, under Schengen area rules. you will only be allowed to spend 90 days on holiday in Spain and not be allowed to return until another 90 days have elapsed. You would not have the option to go to another Schengen country during that time.In theory you could get a visa extension but as yet, we don't know easy that will be. The only other alternative is to apply for residency.
Nov 18th 2019, 5:18 pm
#24
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Cartama, Malaga
Posts: 1,168
Re: Applying for residency
Interesting if the post brexit visa requirements are extended to people who have been here for years / are working. I can see alot of people leaving, and alot of businesses closing / running into difficulties.
Nov 18th 2019, 10:22 pm
#25
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
If you have signed on the register of foreigners you have the right to stay. If you have stayed for more than 5 years and are registered, you have a permanent right to reside in Spain. Brexit does not affect this and visas will not be required.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
Nov 19th 2019, 7:16 am
#26
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Puente Esuri
Posts: 6,904
Re: Applying for residency
If you have signed on the register of foreigners you have the right to stay. If you have stayed for more than 5 years and are registered, you have a permanent right to reside in Spain. Brexit does not affect this and visas will not be required.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
Nov 19th 2019, 6:33 pm
#27
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Cartama, Malaga
Posts: 1,168
Re: Applying for residency
If you have signed on the register of foreigners you have the right to stay. If you have stayed for more than 5 years and are registered, you have a permanent right to reside in Spain. Brexit does not affect this and visas will not be required.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
if you have not registered, after Brexit the rules are likely to be very different if you want to stay for more than 90 days.
exactly.. lots of people that have tried to hide .. some of my colleagues (having been here for 10+ years) "refuse" to sign onto the register, believing that they are exempt - no matter how much its discussed.
What gets me is that there will be no "checks".. its not like overnight "they" will become illegal and suddenly the police will burst in the door... But when is "residency status" checked? It may well be easy to continue to live under the radar afterwards, but I´m sure that there will be certain moments when the whole situation comes "unstuck" .. at least I hope so, people have got away with it for far too long.
Dec 1st 2019, 5:43 pm
#28
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2019
Location: Aussie nomad with no fixed abode
Posts: 236
Re: Applying for residency
Do expats leaving Spain for good normally de-register? If you don't de-register are there problems that can arise?
Dec 1st 2019, 9:07 pm
#29
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
Posts: 10,902
Re: Applying for residency
Under the current situation it’s all a bit laid back. Yes, it’s easy enough to de register but I doubt that many people bother. De registering for tax purposes is a different issue and I guess most declared tax residents would be advised to de register.
This will probably all change after Brexit as the process for residency will become more difficult as Brits will then be threaten as third country citizens, (unless special exceptions are made).
This will probably all change after Brexit as the process for residency will become more difficult as Brits will then be threaten as third country citizens, (unless special exceptions are made).
