Europe certainly doesn't exhibit much encouragement for profit, or in my view, more accurately referred to as prosperity. In fact, it has mostly exhibited quite the opposite, with the exception of those who enjoy political favouritism for one reason or another, which perhaps explains a little about Europe's decline and increasing wealth disparity.

But that's not really Europe's main problem. Europe's problem is that it consistently dismisses the forest for leaves of the trees. Predictably, Europe has always been more focused on tax revenue (leaves of the trees) than the health of the economy (the forest). And if you disagree with that, consider Europe's first response to the economic crisis: Raise taxes (collect more leaves). The absolute opposite of what's good for the forest.

And I do very much support the decreasing voter apathy that's traditionally plagued Europe, as was recently exhibited in Greece. Unfortunately, it took an act of desperation, but of course I welcome it.

Unfortunately, choices made in desperation often result in quick-fixes, but render little long-term sensibility. And this is what I predict in Greece. It won't take long before socialist idealism fails to render any tangible growth, ultimately resulting in a return to widespread political dissent. Likely a desperate vote for an extreme right-wing ideology next time. In the absence of middle ground, it's no surprise.

Anyway, I'd argue that when the health of the forest is good, the trees prosper. At least that's how it works in nature.

And about tax... well, it shouldn't surprise anyone that so-called "tax havens" have always been a part of European politics, and frankly, long supported by European Governments, and especially the UK. There's a reason for it, and it's not complicated.

Our left-leaning ideological character is based largely on the idyllic concept of socialism, which is inherently anti-wealth, and in it's purest form, anti-democratic. Yet statistically, personal prosperity is the single most important metric in any democratic election. And particularly in traditionally left-leaning societies, even when a voter is economically fit, if others are perceived to be more prosperous, it's statistically more likely that voter will vote to the left, as it is perceived to be unfair that they should "suffer" whilst others perceptibly don't.

Still, in reality, any economy depends on wealth to prosper - and so, in an anti-wealth socialist society, paying for it all becomes rather complicated. Whilst we love to penalise wealth to satisfy our socialist ideological bent, we can't penalise it as much as our socialist ideology would have us do, or else the golden goose will simply quit laying eggs, or just fly south for good.

So, we have to "quietly" protect wealth as much as possible to avoid violating our beliefs, and tax havens have been the traditional solution. Quietly, turn the other cheek whilst the wealth that supports our little social utopia keeps laying those golden eggs, because frankly, we wouldn't make it without wealth. It's one of the ironies (and flaws) of socialism.

And as the European economy continues in decline, it's no surprise the conventional wisdom is to apply more of the same. More tax, more penalisation, that'll fix it. After all, we wouldn't want anyone to prosper. That would be wholly unfair.

When you put oil and water into a blender, you may obtain a cloudy liquid for a while, but over time, it ultimately separates. And you only need to look around to see how that analogy is indeed rather true of our little utopia today.

Anyway, I'd argue that penalising prosperity won't make any of us any more prosperous - except of course, for the privileged. And again, just look around you to see a testament to that.

Just for fun, here's one example of a tax policy that your hero Miliband sees as the way forward:

Wealth Tax

I also find it curious how socialist leaders consistently seem to exhibit blatant hypocrisy - as well as significant wealth. Funny, innit?

You keep referring to Europe do you mean the EU and in particular the Eurozone.
Or do you really believe that every country in what is geographically part of Europe ranging from the much of the old USSR to Turkey all behave in the same way ??


You cannot compare the rules in the UK for setting up and running a new business with those in France or Spain.
Equally the tax breaks Ireland gives multi nationals with just a notional presence in their country to the UK where much of the economic activity takes place.

Well, until it became a bit too popular amongst even mildly wealthy Europeans, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco, and others weren't pressured too much, and in fact, were favourites of Europe's elite.

But when even the "unprivileged" started to hide their wealth, it became a political liability. In fact, in the covert (and illegal) espionage conducted by the German finanzamt on foreign banks in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Liechtenstein_tax_affair, Switzerland, and others, it gave them a peek at the true extent of it - many top political appointees were hiding their money there as well as thousands more who didn't have the political "privilege" to do so.

I suppose I need not mention the Church, which has neither any tax burden, nor any obligation to declare any of its profits. Hell, the German government even helps them collect almost €9 billion annually in Germany alone. Not a cent paid in tax. I understand that aside from the few million in cash that gets stuffed into bishops' mattresses, much of it ends up in various tax havens around Europe, including Andorra.

If you run a business, you need to make a profit in order to pay your running costs, pay your employees and their exorbitant social costs and if you are lucky there is something left over to invest and keep the company going. Europe doesn't get this. It's becoming increasingly unfriendly for small business.

Bosses of many big companies 'cheat' and take their wages out of the company and only pay a very low rate of corporate tax on it and no or very little income tax.

President Obama claimed triumphantly that he paid all his taxes (15%)..

Meanwhile I Europe we have rates of 40%, 42% and even 52% for mid range incomes...
very fair isn't it!!

Another poster who does not seem to know what Europe is and how many countries and different systems are involved.
If you mean the EU or Eurozone then please say so.

Funny, if I were to judge from your historical narratives, I'd be compelled to conclude the same about you.

I take it that from now on you will stop using generalisations like Europe even if as you clearly believe the red flags are waving from the the Urals to the straights of Gibraltar.

Sorry, I assumed you knew what and where Europe is, so I'll be more specific.

Here's some background info:

European Union
The European Union is a politico-economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe. The EU operates through a system of supranational institutions and intergovernmental negotiated decisions by the member states.
Founded: November 1, 1993, Maastricht, Netherlands
Unemployment rate: 11.4% (Oct 2014) Eurostat
Government debt: 87.4% of GDP (2013) Eurostat
Broadband penetration: 26.50 connections per 100 inhabitants (Jan 2011)
Founders: France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands, Germany

I do not see Turkey or Switzerland.Norway etc etc etc on your list. Are they no longer part of Europe.

If you mean the EU then just say so.

[QUOTE=EMR;1155507
The Uk., the ,EU and now the U S looks like momentum is growing and about time too.[/QUOTE]

Hate to be PEDANTIC! But the UK is part of the EU.

What, precisely, is your point?

This?
Well, perhaps you could benefit from a bit of reality.

Here's some worthwhile reading for you, from a credible, traditionally Euro-optimist historian with the benefit of a generation of experience in European legacy:

Interview with Historian Walter Laqueur on the Decline of Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE

If you need, there's a lot more compelling information about Europe's continuing decline, from highly credible sources, of all political affiliations and nationalities, if you still don't get it.

I hate to agree with EMR but strictly speaking he is correct - the continent of Europe extends eastwards to a line north from the Black Sea along the line of the Ural and the Ural mountains to the Arctic. Your comments obviously meant to include with the EU the EEA but your shorthand leads you into a whole different argument.
BTW your source for the EU is also incorrect. Legally speaking the EU only came into existence in 2007 with the treaty of Lisbon. Although Maastricht was sub-titled the Treaty for the European Union (TEU) the European Community (EC) was still the proper name (although many started to use the term EU). Again your list of founders is also incorrect - France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands, Germany - were the signatories to the Treaty of Rome which established the European Economic Community (EEC), which was the community that the UK joined.

I'm sure EMR knows exactly what you mean but he is using pedantry to attempt to destroy your argument - and you appear to be falling for it.

The UK subscribes to a "Euro Club Card" that entitles it to discounts in trade with the Krauts, the Frogs, those wacky Italians, and all the rest of those charming Europeans. But that's pretty much where it ends.

In addition to it's currency independence, the UK shares precious few similarities with EU members in terms of economics, banking, politics, culture, or otherwise.

And you don't need to look far to find that most Brits don't truly consider themselves "Europeans". In fact, at the risk of exhibiting blasphemy, in truth, culturally, politically, and economically, the UK far more resembles the US than the EU.

Well, I couldn't be arsed to engage in a thesis for a debate over petty semantics, so I just did a quick copy & paste of information from Wiki. My apologies if there are technical inaccuracies.

And you're right - it's a common tactic of EMRs, and his usual sign of desperation - I should know better.

Maybe you should know better but reading your posts is enjoyable and no one is fooled by the pedantic behaviour of your opponent. For me, the information that it has elicited makes for a worthwhile silver lining to the cloud.
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