While I agree with much of what you said in your previous posts I cannot agree with this.

• Higher corruption - Are you serious? America is fraught with corruption. It is commonplace for large companies to buy votes through the use of lobbyist. In America it is perfectly acceptable for companies to pay a politician to vote in their favour. Most Americans do not see it as corruption but it very clearly is.
• Higher bureacracy - Agreed.
• Higher taxes - Yes, America has always had lower taxes, however, this is not always a good thing.
• Lower standard of living - Depends what part of Europe you are referring too. America has a poorer standard of living when compared to some European countries. America has a comparable standard of living to many European countries. However, when you factor in inequality of life America drops way down the list. The divide between rich and poor in America is ludicrous. In truth America has a lower standard of living than most European countries...... unless you are rich.
• Benefits systematically being minimised or eliminated - This is happening in America too.
• Rule of law which favours power and influence - More prevalent in America.
• More government regulation and interference in daily life - Hard to compare and impossible to judge. However, the erosion of rights in America since early 2000 is certainly in the running for government 'interference in daily life'.
• No sign of this changing in the foreseeable future, likely getting much worse - And America isn't?

See you had a bit of disagreement on the Italy forum too...where too next

Lol that was a long time ago... 2008.

Plus this time I am in the majority as everybody seems to disagree with amideislas.

Well, "everybody disagees" is yet another exaggeration, since I actually produce facts and commentary of plenty of others who agree, while those who simply don't want to hear these facts cannot produce anything other than made-up claims that have no basis in reality.

My current favourite is the claim that the Euro crisis is a "conspiracy of the British and Americans to destroy the European economy". Another is that everything American is crap, but everything European is the world leader. Oh boy. But surprisingly, many people actually believe this stuff. I think I give people too much credit sometimes.

Anyway, having said that, just look what you said previously:

Yet Spain's corruption ratings are consistently worse, far worse than that of the US and most of Europe. I could post about 50 links, but what's the point, really? I've already done that ad-nauseum.

See my later commentary on this subject.

Well, their taxes are much lower, their economy is growing, while ours is shrinking. What's that tell you?

Well, it does depend on where you are, but in general, it's no secret that Americans do live a higher standard for any given economic class.

Inequality? You mean everyone isn't of the same socio-economic class in America? Wow. I was expecting everyone to make exactly the same and be exactly alike - just as the European model aspires to achieve. I guess I was wrong.

One of my good german friends recently told me that 50% of the US now lives in poverty, and the other half are billionaires. Gee, when you put it that way, it sure sounds bad to me, too. Unfortunately, there isn't a speck of truth to it.

NEWS FLASH: America still has the largest middle class per capita of any country on earth, and the standard by which much of that middle class lives would often be considered "upper class" by many European standards.

Really? I'm not sure about that, since the US is not a welfare state per se.

But there is one big difference: We pay dearly for those benefits with our ridiculously high taxes, which, by the way, continue to go up while our benefits go down. Think about it. Then do a bit of research. You will soon learn that this "tax and spend" mindset is strangling the European economy, and you are paying for it.

Ahh, yes - the evil USA with their power and influence. Well, here are just a couple of the many things that are very different:

Legal extortion:
When Endesa bills me 3x my actual consumption each billing period, then threatens me with disconnection if I don't pay their indisputably inflated facturas, even though I've filed a dispute (every two months I am forced to go through this), I have to believe that power and influence rein in Spain. It's estimated that Endesa profits at least €20M annually from this and other unethical practices, yet they continue largely with impunity. Figure it out.

That would equate to extortion in most countries. Here, it's completely legal, and there' s not a damn thing I can do about it. In the UK or the US, there is the OFT and the consumer protection agency, which will take them to the mat. Here, the consumer agencies are weak and impotent. They really can't do much, they don't have anywhere near the influence that big business has.

Meet my brother in law:
A local politician in my neighbourhood recently rallied for support of a new "pont verde" - rubbish collection point. The strategy was to "consolidate" the numerous collection sites scattered around the town where everyone needs to bring their rubbish, into a single, modern collection site. It was estimated to cost €28M, and would save the public €10M over the course of 10 years.

Well, it was built and it is indeed beautiful. Lovely, modern, with sculpted landscapes and ... well, really nice.

Unfortunately, it's 7Km outside of the town. Now, I have to drive over 10Km to dump my rubbish (before, I drove less than 1Km). Better yet, because it's the only collection place in town, there is always a long queue to get in (apparently they didn't think of that).

The result is that people are now dumping their rubbish on the streets. So they've hired a special team of people to collect and rummage through the rubbish left on the streets to try to discover who owns it. Now our "contribucion" is going up 5% - presumably to pay for the people to pick up the rubbish from the streets. Brilliant.

But here's the best part: The entire construction project was awarded to this politician's brother in-law's construction firm. Yep, €28M. Lovely.

In the US, such a project would require family members' and their families' businesses to be excluded from the bidding. Not here, it's perfectly OK. Further, the project would have had to go through a useability study to find out the impact on the local population. Nope, not here.

I pay over €300 per year for the right to use that facility. Yet, nobody picks up my rubbish, I have to sort it and bring it to them. In the US, they pick up the rubbish for a lot less than €300 per year (if they have to pay at all).

What's that tell you?

Let's look around Europe a bit more:

The church:
In Germany, the church (one of the biggest businesses on earth, any way you slice it) has massive influence. It's law that store cannot be open on Sunday (unless you pay for a permit), you can get a €40 fine for washing you car on a Sunday, and the state collects about €300 per year church tax from Catholic families ("Kirchensteuer"). Want to know where that money goes? http://www.spiegel.de/international/...700513,00.html

Yes, the church is a business entity which is completely immune to disclosure of its funds and any taxation of it. In the US for example, churches are required to report their income like any other business. If they are profitable, they are required to pay tax like anyone else (e.g., televangelism). And the state is prohibited from collecting funds on behalf of any church ("separation of church and state"). But here, all of those things are just peachy and completely legal, and in my view, totally unethical and a clear conflict of interest.

TV tax.
Wow, I could go on for pages about the absolute uselessness and backhanded money-grubbing fleecing of the public on this topic. I'll save it for another time, but suffice it to say that TV networks in the US are required to obtain their revenue through legitimate means, not by fleecing the public through obligatory taxes, plus the costs of enforcing a tax nobody wants to pay.

The nuke issue (I love this one):
Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor (and the model European) recently decided to abolish all nuclear facilities by the end of the decade. Ironically, she has always been a major proponent of nuclear energy, but elections are coming up, and after the terrible tragedy in Japan at Fukoshima (a nuke plant dangerously and irresponsibly built on a well-known and extremely dangerous faultline), the German public neurotically became extremely anti-nuke, fearing the same in Germany (although the conditions are hardly comparable).

Well, as it turns out, she needs the votes, and low and behold, Vladimir's company, Gazprom, offered to install a gas and oil pipline directly into Germany. I don't suppose there were any "incentives" there, except this glorious opprtunity: To appear "green" and land those all important votes, Germany has now adopted fossil fuels as an energy strategy for the foreseeable future, while appearing "green" at the same time. Nice illusion, huh?

http://oilandglory.foreignpolicy.com...in_russias_arm

Who wants to put a tenner on Angie winning the election, and the greens being the party that pushes the vote in her favour? Brilliant.

I could go on and on with undisputable examples of this stuff. I could write a volume on the European commission alone. But why bother? It's all legal and nothing out of order. What's the fuss?

But really, at the end of the day, do you really think Europe is more ethical than the evil US? Don't be naive.

Power and influence is king, my friend, but in Europe, much of that behaviour has over decades, become completely legal and part of the very fabric of society. In the US or the UK, many of the common occurances that take place within European governments would cause a major corruption scandal. Here, it's just business as usual, so naturally, the perception is that there's much higher corruption in the US, because it's actually illegal there.

Well I am quite certain that police in the US are not free to stop anyone at any time, to rummage through their car in hopes of finding "something" to charge them with (and collect a fine for). It's called "probable cause" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause.

Here, it's a normal part of life. We get stopped about once per month in the winter and they search the car (in summer they don't want to annoy the tourists - don't scare away the money).

I'm also quite certain that the IRS ( the US equivalent of HMRC) is not licenced to simply extract any amount from your bank account, on the "suspicion" that maybe you owe more taxes than you pay. I don't know if this is possible in Spain (although I am told that they can), but in Germany, they most certainly can extract any amount they want, without any due process, simply on "suspicion". In fact, the German finanzamt (tax authority) has free access to bank accounts by any German taxpayer at any time (you must agree to this when you open an account). The can see your spending habits, what you buy, where you've been, what you do, where your money comes from... everything. I'd guess the Spanish can also do that, but I don't know.

Relentless pursuit of tax collection, because we need it:
I'd argue that the relentless quest to obtain as much tax revenue as possible using any means is every bit as much a symptom of greed and unethical behaviour in European governments as any so-called "greed" you'll find in the US.

Read this. It's an eye opener.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feat...s-over-europe/

I don't believe it's possible in the US for the local councils to agree to a building permit, then years later, randomly decide it's illegal, and force the owner to pay "fines" for their "illegal" building. I'm sure there are planning and zoning laws over there, but I seriously doubt that the local council is free to impose anything they want., at any time, for any reason. Here, it's far from "unusual".

If you let your property, and the tenant stays for over five years, then why is it necessary to let them live there forever, and virtually impossible to evict them, even if they refuse to pay the rent? This wouldn't ever happen in the US. Guaranteed. If they don't pay the rent, they must leave. No excuses. No bullshit.

Again, I could write a book about how the government controls your life here.. But really, what's the point?

America's economy is recovering, albeit slowly, but most seem to agree that the current stumbling block to US recovery is the Eurocrisis, which if solved would restore confidence in US markets, and we'd begin to see much larger gains on that side of the pond as a result.

Here, the prognosis by all experts is grim (Sarkozy is NOT an expert, he is a politician), and the only solutions being offered up at this point are pointless, or basically the same things that got us here in the first place, and that's why the European economy is expected to continue to contract. We are hopelessly uncompetitive, are not taking any steps to stimulate growth, and actually are encouraging further decline by further burdening an already heavily burdened economy.

And noteworthy: if Spain had 9% unemployment (currently 22% and rising - official numbers), the end of the crisis would be declared, people would be dancing in the streets, but in the US, 9% is considered an absolute disaster and often compared to the great depression. Does that suggest anything to you about European expectations compared to Americans?

I'll let you be the judge of who is in a better position.

""I'll let you be the judge of who is in a better position.""

Well having seen some of the US slum areas, shanty towns and trailer parks, I can't say I've ever seen anything quite so bad as that on a similar scale in Europe.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories. Nor do I believe Europe is the world leader. I find it entertaining that you scoff at other peoples flawed beliefs whilst telling yourself Americas economy is recovering. You clearly lack a full understanding of economic factors. I will explain this below.

The leading source of corruption ratings is the Corruption Perception Index (CPI). The CPI is calculated based mainly on surveys surveys given to business people. The CPI doesn't use it's own surveys, it uses data collected by other agencies. Let's explore the flawed concept of corruption ratings based on surveys.

In the Unites States corruption is an accepted part of politics. It is perfectly normal for large corporations to pay politicians for their votes. It is also normal for large corporations to use their infinite resources to hire lobbyists. Lobbyists are experts at swaying a politicians vote. Generally, whoever can afford more lobbyists gets what they want. In America everything is for sale, especially the politicians.

In most developed countries this would be seen as corruption. It should not be acceptable for politicians to be paid for their votes, it is the very essence of corruption. However, Americans seem to think it is perfectly normal and an acceptable part of politics.

When the CPI is calculated, opinions collected from Americans citizens. The problem with that is that what Europe considers corrupt Americans consider perfectly normal. So according to it's people America is not corrupt. However, relative to Europe America is highly corrupt.

How can a people be free when their politicians are for sale? In America public opinions and votes rarely count. What counts is who has the deepest pockets and who can hire the most lobbyists.

That is like saying Hitler had a moustache, Stalin had a moustache, and Saddam Hussein had a moustache..... clearly all men with moustaches are pure evil!!!!

You have not established a causal link between low taxes and economic growth. Just as I haven't established a causal link between moustaches and evilness. You have stated two 'facts' and suggested they are somehow linked. Where is the link? where is the proof?

Low taxes can be good and bad dependant of how the country manages itself. When a country collects less tax from it's people it has less money to spend (causal link). Whilst American taxes are low the country is mismanaged so their national debt is astronomical. Even though it is usually hidden debt is one of the best indicators of economic prowess. So let's look at national debt/population and see who fares the worst.

US national debt = $15,250,000,000,000 (rounded down)
US population = 312,130,000
US Debt per person = $48,857

UK national debt = $1,700,000,000,000 (rounded up)
UK population = 62,218,761
UK Debt per person = $27322

Spanish national debt = $2,200,000,000,000 (rounded up)
Spanish population = $46,081,574
Spanish Debt per person = $47,741

The US and Spain or on somewhat equal footing. However, when the US is compared against most of Europe it's debt per person is astronomical.

It certainly is a secret to me. I am not sure where you are drawing your facts from but it certainly isn't from reputable sources.

Please do not twist my words, it is not called for. Inequality is normal in just about every country. However, in most developed countries the divide between rich and poor isn't as wide as America. Whilst your friend may have some flawed information he or she is not as wrong as you believed.

Based on income, 0 percentile being the lowest income earners, and 100 percentile being the highest income earners here is how wealth is distributed.

0-50 percentile - Owns 2.5% of country's wealth.
50-90 percentile - Owns 26% of country's wealth.
90-99 percentile - Owns 37.7% of country's wealth.
100 percentile (the top 1%) - Owns 33.8% of country's wealth.

So in actual fact 50% of Americans live in poverty and the other 50% own 97.5% of Americas wealth. These numbers are truly frighting and inequality in America is much higher than in most other developed countries.

Above I have laid out one of many charts that show inequality in America. However, it gets even worse, half of America owns only 0.5% of America's investment assets whereas the top 1% owns more than 50%.

You touch on social mobility in your 'news flash'. Upwards social mobility is largely a myth in America. For the most part statistics show that if you are born poor in America you die poor. America has a lower upwards mobility than most developed countries. The fact that you mention the middle class shows that your facts are completely flawed. The term 'middle class' is very ambiguous and nobody can judge what part of America or any count is 'middle class'. The problem is that social classes lack clear definitions so middle class in America can include 20% to 70% of households, depending on who you ask.

I am running short on time so unfortunately I cannot lay out household income statistics but America does no fare well. Your completely overstating facts in your 'news flash'.

Low taxes = High national debt.
High national debt = Lower standard of living.

There are other factors that lead to high national debt but taxes is on of the most important.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said Europe is more ethical. I won't touch the diatribe about laws. All you did was cherry pick some of the worst laws in various European countries and peg them against America. Had I the time or the will I could produce a list of archaic American laws that would rival your European list. Cherry picking is fun but it is an invalid type of argument.

I am also going to skip the tax stuff because I believe that taxes are an important part of a countries economy and they are a necessity. I hate paying taxes as much as anybody but I know they are a necessity. I wish that that tax money always went to the right place and not into politicians pockets but unfortunately it doesn't. However, this is a problem as much in Europe as it is in America.

Americas economy is not recovering. You must subscribe to the drivel the American media feeds it's people. America is in dire straits. Their economy is failing and the Federal Reserve seems to be doing everything it can to bring about that failure. Quantitative easing has cause irreparable damage to the American economy. By printing trillions of US dollars America has devalued it's currency.

I could go on for a very long time about the US economy but again I am running short on time. Suffice to say their is curretnly a boon in the American economy. The boon is caused by high retail sales from October through to December (holiday period). Now that the holidays are over American numbers will get worse. Also quantitative easing will cause an economic boon in the short terms but a disaster in the long term, look at Japan.

Prognosis is grim everywhere. You just seem to buy into the American media hype about recovery. Europe is well and truly screwed and I agree that they are not stimulating growth.

To be honest I agree with most of what you say about Europe. However, you seem to hold America up as a shining beacon of everything right. You seem to put on dark tinted glasses when looking at Europe and rosy tinted glasses when looking at America. The truth is both Europe and America are screwed and the politicians are not taking the appropriate steps to fix things.

If you want a real shining beacon look at Australia. Relative to America and Europe Australia has a booming economy and it is ranked second in the human development index. The divide between rich and poor is relativity small and the average household income is high. Medical services far exceed those of most European countries and certainly those of America. Unemployment in Australia has declines in the past 10 years and has plateaued at a healthy 5%. If you want a beacon do not look to America, look to Australia.

It is all relative, US unemployment reached 25 year highs in 2009 and is still extremely high. Spanish unemployment is high but it is not at 25 year highs. If you look at the figures you will see that both Spain and the US have both had close to a 300% increase in unemployment since their 2007 lows. Admittedly Spain's unemployment increased by a slightly higher percentage but not enough to write home about. You also need to consider that like you America loves to cherry pick. Whenever the stats look bad they invent a reason to exclude a certain category of people from their unemployment figures. It is speculated that the true unemployment in America is upwards of 15%.

I believe that you are confusing European expectations with Spanish expectations. In much of Europe 9% unemployment would be a disaster but in other parts of Europe 9% is normal. Many factors lead to unemployment and many countries can have a perfectly healthy economy with a unemployment rate of 10% for an example look at Germany a few years ago. Now that I bring up Germany you should look at their unemployment rate. It is at the lowest it has been in 20 years. In fact if you look at the stats many European countries are seeing a decline in unemployment and many have a similar unemployment rate to America. Whereas America is seeing a rise in unemployment.....

[QUOTE=NickFX;9875453 You clearly lack a full understanding of economic factors. I will explain this below.
QUOTE]

I wouldnt bother if I were you, amideislas lives in a parallel universe

Btw, I dont agree with your debt figures, they should be much higher for the UK, but it all depends on which types of debt you include

[QUOTE=cricketman;9875463] Really? As far as I have read it is roughly £1 trillion. Have you for more accurate stats? I would love to see them as I have a sneaking suspicion that UK national debt is understated.

[QUOTE=NickFX;9875471] As with all accounting it is not about being more or less accurate, but about interpretation. If you include the financial sector and public sector liability - and then even private household debt, then the UK becomes the most indebted country in the world

If you just look at governmental debt, not including the financial sector obligations, then the UK does fairly well, both historically and when comparing to other countries

This articles explains fairly well. And there was a BBC article that was linked on another recent thread that compared to other countries, showing that total national debt per person in the UK was 3 times higher than in Spain

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/33...national-debt/

[QUOTE=cricketman;9875496] That was a great read. Thanks for the article.

didnt everyone laugh when Lamont indicated there was a conspiracy at the time of Black Wednesday (16/9/92) ??
Everyone wanted to say it was his incompetence that lead to the fiasco of rising bank rates but George Soros eventually admitted he decided to take on and break the Bank of England, and theoretically succeeded. He made over $1billion in a couple of days.

There are people out there who are mice compared with Soros who are trying to emulate and beat him in bringing down a nation. I believe the markets will not allow them to succeed but it only needs one small slip or slow response..........

seems like the Utopia States of America have everything going for them, just cannot wonder why so many people from the rest of the world who made the mistake of settling there want to get out as soon as possible.

just found a couple of crappy euros at the bottom of my sock draw so I will donate them to your Moving to America fund if you post the account details.
I am sure from the responses you are getting to your blinkered and myopic postings that others will be only too pleased to contribute.

bye bye

No need for someone like Soros to cripple the eurozone...they are managing nicely doing it themselves

How many EU summits does it take to change a lightbulb?

As long as it takes, we are doing everything possible....except calling in an electrician.

The EU cannot afford a new light bulb, their accounts havent passed audit for 15 years

Not the same scenario. Soros won because UK placed GBP into the ERM.
(Exchange rate mechanism) Which maent the GBp was only able to float against other Euro cuurencies withi certain parameters. He knew as well as most other people in the know that GBP was entered at too high a level.
So he had fundementals and a lower limit for GBP to attack.
I think if you want to trash the Euro by selling the crap out of it, cannot see
ECB being to bothered.