I think the country is not a fault for perhaps information provided to prospective employees is lacking.

I guess one cannot expect to have the seniority if one has not been in the department or work place for years as others already have. It would upset the apple cart. So guess its a pitfall that people have to take into account.

I have always felt that migration was for younger people then they have time to get roots in work and have their family. When one is an experienced trades person or professional its not conducive to settling happily when big steps backward in careers are the norm.

I believe if you are established have a job you like, decent home and good amount of time to have holidays why migrate.

As a child living in a Suffolk village with an extended family and a very nice life I was so upset when my parents decided to migrate. I am happy now but I know that I would have been equally as happy if I had stayed as I know what I am like.

Canada is not for you but you don't mind having the privilege of Canadian citizenship !! Hmmm.

We started the whole process of citizenship over a year ago and at that time we weren't planning on going back. Having taken the citizenship test at about the same time we decided to go back we decided that since we had already paid the $400 processing fee that's none refundable we might as well complete the process by attending the swearing in ceremony and getting citizenship.

Privilege is an interesting term. Not sure if you've gone through the citizenship process yourself yet but from my experience with the test I'd struggle to justify the term as most of the applicants who turned up had somehow managed to circumvent most of the pre-requisites, including those for written and oral ability in English or French.

The majority had people there to speak on their behalf. Part of the test is reading and completing the test form and most couldn't even accomplish that. If you attend the test with family members you're made to sit apart to stop colluding- ok let's be blunt here and call it what it is which is cheating.
It was fairly obvious that a large proportion of the applicants knew each other and were conversing in languages that weren't English or French on filling in the forms. The test administrators could see this and decided to let them through with the test- fair enough, they'd paid for it so no harm done.

So as you may guess the term "privilege" for me causes some raised eyebrows. We've spent a serious amount of time and money getting a work permit, getting the PR, moving to Canada and applying for citizenship, meeting the pre-requisites and doing things by the book. To turn up for the tests and see the whole immigration system made a mockery of, turned out to be "the straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak.

We may be moving back to the UK but we've made a dam sight more effort to fit in and make a go of things in the six years we've been here than most of the those at the test who, judging by their efforts, seemed to view citizenship as a right rather than a privilege.

This philosophy is probably ok for a combat soldier, where the rules of the game are based around discipline and a certain amount of blind obedience to a superior, along with the need to survive in the battlefield. To adopt some of these principals in civilian life, can also be appropriate as well, but they shouldn`t be adopted at the cost of losing a high degree of a person`s humanity. Human error, making mistakes, being happy or being sad based on those decisions, is what makes many of us warm hearted individuals and also links us together as humans, its what separates us from the mundane coldness of soulless logic

But still no reason why one should not accept responsibility for ones one actions and decisions instead of blaming someone or something else. I know of people who have every reason to blame someone else for their current circumstances. Not one of them ever did, not the country, enemy, politicians, manufacturers of the weapons etc.

In any conflict you would see examples of compassion and humanity that would humble anyone and make some of the things we complain about suddenly seem insignificant, and should make us ashamed to complain.

Most people do accept responsibility for their actions, what they don`t except are outside influences that can alter that action, whether it be another individual or country etc. We`re dealing with human nature here and human beings will make decisions, sometimes under compromise or even great duress, to simply say that they should get on with it and not blame outside influences is a very black and white statement to make and its far more complex than that. The environment in which we live in, throws out hurdles on a daily basis, some of these hurdles are under our control and therefore we can make informed decisions, more often than not though, they are beyond our control, when a problem is not a result of our own doing then someone should be held accountable, is this not what constitutes a democracy?

To compare compassion and humanity in a war scenario, to that of every day life is a rather silly comparison to make. War for most people on the planet, is not an everyday scenario and therefore most will never see it. People are only interested in what relates to them on a daily basis, whether it be someone in Africa not having a enough food to get through the day, a drug addict not getting his daily fix, a prostitute running out of condoms, a pensioner unable to stay warm in the winter or a Hollywood actor missing out on a film part. All of these examples, are of utmost concern to those involved, to simply tell them that they should not complain and feel ashamed of themselves, is in itself an elitist statement to make.

I disagree many don't. The poster that sparked this discussion. The country screwed up my life, or something to that effect. Who's fault was it, the immigration officer for letting them in? CIC for approving the application? Shit happens, just get up dust off and get on, who fault it was does not change anything. Look at how many criminals try and get off with insanity defences, it was my mind, not me.

No its not, its really simple. Often situations are complex because people make them complicated. Things don't work out, figure out a way round it and move forward. No good harping and whining about it, it changes nothing. Repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result is just stupidity. There is no duress with immigration, do it, don't do it, its a personal choice. It may be stressful, but no duress or need. Compromising is part of human interaction, you cannot always have your own way. As much as some would like.

Accountability has nothing to do with democracy. Accountability is taking responsibility for your own actions. Democracy is a system of government. Where does responsibility start and end? You lose your job due to a recession, who is responsible, the employer, the government, the consumer for not buying enough, the union for asking for too high a wage, the companies that went broke and sparked it all off? Or is it just one of those things, time to move on and stop dwelling on it, it ain't going to change a thing.

For you perhaps, for many unfortunately it is. How many conflicts are going on in the world today? How many people are affected by it? Terrorosim according to the US is a war, that is affecting pretty much the entire population of the world.

This is human nature, who do the people of Africa blame for their plight, or do they just get on with it and hope they survive another day. Who's fault is it the pensioner cannot keep warm, society, the power company, the government, the people who elected them? Who do they blame? There are pensioners who do just fine, they prepared for retirement. What about people who smoke and drink then complain they've go no money and cannot afford to live, who's fault is that? I'd say it is self inflicted.

A drunk driver who kills a child, who's fault is that? The vendor of the alcohol, the brewer, the car manufacturer, the police for lack of enforcement, the child for running out, the driver because it was not their fault they are an alcoholic? Who should take the blame?

Don't think the Hollywood actor would get much sympathy from most.

Life is too short to whine, enjoy what you have not what you don't have or lost. Quit complaining and make the most of it. It is not here for long.

And that is absolutely the nub of the issue. You have a choice in the matter. Whatever you choose to do in life - a choice freely taken - if it goes wrong, then ultimately, whatever the external factors might have been that contributed to its going wrong, it was still your choice. It was you exercising your own free will. If you're press-ganged into doing something that goes wrong and adversely affects your life, then that's different. Unless you want to argue that all of us, in Rousseau's words, may feel ourselves to be free when everywhere we're actually in chains... but, well, where do you stop with that one?

And that's the point. You can philosophise about the nature of choice and the meaning of democracy until the proverbial 4-legged mammals come in for milking... but the phrase reductio ad absurdum is beginning to come to mind...

You're not wrong there!

If you look at the OP`s original thread, they were really just accounting their trials and tribulations in Canada and for them the outcome is now positive, but I`ll agree with the fact that some people don`t research their move properly, but disagree with the attitude that they got what they deserved for not doing so.

No duress to immigration!!! Moving house, moving country, the separation of families, nostalgia to one`s birthplace, giving up one`s daily routine to move to what can often be an alien location and a different way of life and you think this is just a straightforward process?

People are complex because they are shaped by the environment in which they are born and bred in. A child that grows up in a stable environment of loving parents is more likely to achieve a degree of success in adulthood, than someone that grows up from a broken home or has an abusive parent etc. Point being, that human beings are very complex with issues that stay with them throughout their lifetime, its not a simple case of just wiping the slate clean and starting again, human beings are not a hard drive that you can just wipe off and start again. Issues and choices are complex, because quite often when a human being makes that decision, other lives are often involved.

Accountability is very much part of the democratic set-up, it doesn`t function in non-democratic environments as there are no laws to enforce it.

Nobody is suggesting that if somebody loses their job in an economic crisis that the blame should be directed toward government or employers etc but its human nature to feel disappointed and angry, its part of what the human species are, without sometimes knowing it, people just get on with their lives anyway, but if they feel better moaning about it them let them do so, its kind of an inner therapy.

A lot of things constitute a war as far as the USA are concerned and that has been the case since WWII. Global terrorism is largely a product of US subversiveness anyway, I think its a shame that they involve other countries and endanger their own citizens lives in the process. We`re lucky they haven`t mastered universal space travel yet and dug out more terrorists for us to fight. Does Bin Laden really exist?

I think the African, can without doubt blame the colonial European for his current plight, as when the African slave trade started around the 15th and 16th centuries, Europeans established plantations in Africa and basically sucked these countries dry and to this day they still haven`t recovered, so yes they can directly blame someone, but I suppose you could equally dismiss this, as being a long time ago and suggest that they should just get on with things....Survival of the fittest etc.

The pensioner that prepared for retirement!!! I`m sure there are many pensioners on here that did that, or at least made an attempt and still can`t make ends meet, in order to live a rather modest life, again its not as straightforward as you suggest.

The Hollywood actor needs to eat and make a living just like anybody else and of course plan for his pension.

Give it a rest

The Rousseau adopted "General Will" is probably one of the most abused phrases in political history, this Swiss calvinist certainly has a lot to answer for.

So says the person, that has cold heartedly slammed people as not quite being up to his elitist level.

But of course.....you now have the decision and its your decison alone, on whether or not you reply to this.

Really not worth any more effort. But one suggestion, go buy an English dictionary, I am not sure you fully understand the meaning of some of the words you use, for example 'Duress' - look it up.

Oh man... you really over-intellectualize this. I don't think anyone can say anything without you bringing the entire weight of your clearly formidable intellect and education to bear and analysing it to death. Perhaps this is another example of 'analysis paralysis'. Maybe you could use the thread as the basis for a thesis: The Paradox of Existential Determinism. Hm. That'd be a snappy title.