Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Vettel 10 points ahead, looking likely to win

Alonso - better driver - car not as good as RB

In the past Alonso has behaved like a spoilt child, blaming everything/everyone but himself for his failings. Now it seems Vettel has taken that mantle.

Alonso, this year seems to have matured a little and, considering the times his races have been ended by the mistakes of others, he has responded very calmly.

Vettel's car is undoubtedly superior, and probably with any of the top drivers in it, would have achieved the same.

Who deserves the title? - I reckon Alonso due to an improved attitude and the fact he has achieved more relatively speaking in a less powerful car.

I hope he does well in the next 2 races and that Vettel spits his dummy out. Then we wont have to watch him stick that boney index finger in the air again this year.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Alonso has been fighting his car all year really, the suspension gamble probably cost him the title but I think they had the right idea. The budget restrictions mean innovation and risk taking will be the way to get ahead.

Vettel has been great and I have no idea why people keep saying he wold move to Ferrari when clearly Red Bull have given him the car to win. He will probably take the title again. I'd have thought Alonso to Red Bull would have been more likely.

The best driver out there is Kimi IMO, sure he is a bit of a rock star but whatever he is doing at Lotus it is working. Perez has impressed me also, not a consistent speed yet but he does have the ability to transcend other drivers.

Most puzzling has been Lewis Hamilton, he has had some bad luck but the team switch is baffling. Does he want to win or make excuses? I think Ross Brawn is a genius and will produce a winning car again but it seems far from a safe bet it will be in the next couple of years.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Impossible for Alonso to mature. He's a ****ing weapon.

Vettel loves it, loves racing, loves winning, loves being part of it. Granted, his car is extremely quick but since when did that mean the driver didn't deserve the title in the past?

I'd like to see Kimi in a quick, reliable car next year. That'd make my bollocks tingle.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I know a nice young Oriental lady who will make your bollocks tingle if you want......

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

The Dean's sloppy seconds isn't something I wish to consider at 10:18 on Sunday morning....:rofl:

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben...11/benson.html. Quite a good blog entry on this.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Alonso all the way, simply the best driver of the current lot.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Both of them are quite annoying to be honest. But in terms of who is the best driver this year, I think you'd have to say Alonso. I think his positive attitude and support of his team has been great too, and he hasn't really been drawn into blaming others and criticising his team if the car isn't fast enough.

The Ferrari isn't as bad as everyone claims though, and Alonso is made to look good because he has a van driver as a team-mate. The car is faster in the race than in qualifying, so it tends to flatter him. Similarly Vettel has a less than average team-mate, and both Ferrari and RB seem to like it that way, so they don't have guys taking points off each other.

Hamilton has actually had a great season in terms of his performances, totally let down by reliability and some bad pit stops earlier in the season. If you look at the number of races screwed up by factors outside his control, he'd be right up there too. His attitude has sucked at times though.

I think a fair result would probably be RB for the team title and Alonso for the drivers title.

p.s. the US track looks awesome. The amazing thing about F1 cars isn't straight line speed or low speed cornering, it is how they fly round fast turns like they're on rails due to the downforce. It's the track Abu Dhabi should have built if they actually had any interest in the sport and the cars.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Track design for F1 circuits isnt exactly free to the owners to decide, there are only a couple of guys who can design an FIA F1 homologated track, the asshat Tilke being one of them, FOM have a massive input into every aspect of F1 so its not all ADMM's fault. To a degree what Bernie wants, you pay for!

The actual circuit itself and facilities in Abu Dhabi are highly praised by the teams both in private and public. The support paddocks was hailed as better than almost all the facilities in Australia by the V8 Supercars guys, the actual track though isnt amazing, changes have been muted partly to increase the racing potential for F1 and partly to get bikes there but the initial feedback was such a staggeringly large change that we wont see any substantial changes ever being made. (Turn 8 run off was lengthened after a number of accidents this was done under FIA directions)

This year will be seen by some as a validation of the design as it was a far more interesting race than we've ever seen here before, i don't believe however that the track had that much to do with that.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

regarding the original post.

They are racing drivers and therefore all ultimately little children with little sense of their own mortality or manners.

Alonso has done more with less and Vettel is forever bashed for being in a great car, he is however a bloody brilliant driver who doesnt miss many opportunities. I'd be happy to see either win but reckon Vettel has it in the bag unless there is a major **** up.

Hamilton has lost the plot frankly and given his random behavior of the track i think its clear mclaren want shot of him. They have already signed up Button for after his racing career so Hamilton sees no long term future there anyway, how he does elsewhere, who knows, he is talented but mentally a **** up maybe a new team and sense of place will straighten him out, i hope so. As for Button I hope he gets a better car and can like hamilton settle down a bit next year

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I want to see Vettel point the nose of his car at Alonso's on the first corner, a la Senna / Prost (?)

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

The US circuit is a brand new track. And Istanbul Park is a Tilke circuit, and it is one of the best in the world. My feeling is that the people in AD aren't really interested in the racing, so they didn't bother to look at tracks like Spa, Silverstone, Suzuka, etc. They're just interested in sitting on a glitzy yacht or flashy hotel desperately trying to look as posh as monaco. Someone probably showed them the cost of putting some elevation changes into the track and they baulked and figured they could build a fancy marina and hotel covered in LEDs for the same money.
The facilities for spectators are great too, it's easy to get to the track, park, ride, and the organization was first class. Having bands on afterwards helps spread the rush to leave out over several hours, so by the time we left, it we didn't get stuck in a huge traffic jam either. I couldn't fault them in anything other than the circuit layout itself which I think was done on the cheap because they saw more value in what was around it than in the quality of the racing itself.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

given the over $1 billion cost it certainly wasn't cheap and i agree tilke has some good designs but he has some shit ones too, as you point out the people who commissioned it were not and still are not enthusiasts so nobody with any power knew what they really wanted and neither did they look at the design and say hang on we need some changes. the really sad part is that the circuit is barely being used this season and the powers that be just don't give a shit, half the time they don't even sit on the yachts or even turn up. for what its worth there are elevation changes but not quite on the COTA scale and if you look at the actualy racing lines the drivers of all classes take most ignore tilkes design on half the corners anyway.

the race director for the V8's this year pretty much allowed the drivers to take whatever route they wanted out of the track apart from cutting turns 9 and 12 and running too wide at turn 20 so as to take more speed into turn 21, the rest he just let them do what they wanted regardless of the track design

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Schumacher did it to Hill some years ago too, in Australia I believe, not quite as blatant as when Prost did it to Senna though (but almost)...

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Not in this race he won't, but in Brazil for sure it would be an option. It would definitely give him some notoriety in same way Schuey used to have.

In my opinion Vettel is a very lucky boy to have been at Red Bull during a period in which their car has been consistently better than any other team. Sure he's a decent driver (as are most of the drivers in F1), but I don't believe for a second he is as good as Alonso, Kimi or Lewis when lumbered with a less than perfect ride.

I personally hope he loses the championship by one point to Alonso, and it makes me sick just saying that as I despise the Spanish whiner with a passion.

Only a couple of minutes to all lights out.. :thumbsup:

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Search for that piece about Vettel when he was ten years old......... everyone knew way back then how good he was.............

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I'm not saying he's not good. You don't get a seat in F1 without being a bloody good driver, but what I am claiming is that there are others who are a level above him...

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

He's as good as Schumacher at the same stage of his career.............

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

How I wish an old poster was still here... SYB......

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

he'd still be praising Kimi!

after the last bit of Ferrari cheating I hope Alonso doesn't win it!

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I don't really have a problem with what they did at this point in the season. It makes perfect sense, and the rules are the rules, so it's perfectly fair to use them to your advantage. I do have a problem with the fact they do this kind of thing right from the start of the season. No other team has team orders from the start; Kimi, Schumacher, Hamilton and even Vettel are all expected to race their team-mates. So it's fair to say, much as Alonso has driven well, he has not 'beaten' the only other guy in the same car, whereas Vettel has.

Have to say, the circuit is a classic in my opinion. In particular, some of the corners are extremely wide, which means drivers can take very different lines through them to overtake... and many times we saw two cars alongside each other both getting through the corners. That added to the rather slippery surface makes even a dry race quite exciting. I hope they don't resurface the track for more grip next year because of complaints from the drivers. Rather than have deliberately flaky tyres, it would be much better to have better durable tyres like we had at this race, and a surface with poor grip. This race was exciting even though tyre wear was not an issue and pretty much everyone only stopped once. We got to see some real racing and not just passing during pitstops.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I agree, to a point. I think it's a bit wrong to be able to manipulate the grid and make other drivers lose out on the better grip and grid position by moving them to the less favourable side of the track.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I think F1 has changed rather too much since those days. I think it was Schumacher trying to take out Jacques Villeneuve in 97 that did it. As I recall, he was disqualified from the championship or lost all his points (fortunately he busted his car and not Villeneuves, so the right guy won even without that intervention). So they set the precedent that you cannot win a title with a move like that, which is a good thing in my opinion. Brazil is always exciting and I'd not want it to end on the first corner. Let's have some rain 10 laps from the end to sort the field out.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I can see the argument, I just think it is difficult to police. You'd have to have the FIA overseeing why a team is breaking the seal, whereas now the situation is much clearer. I don't have a problem with it, as long as the rule is consistent so if another team does similar next year, they don't get penalized.

I was a little surprised RB didn't bump webber down from 3rd to 8th with a similar trick. Alonso would have then been promoted to 6th but on dirty side of grid, with webber right behind him (also on dirty side). Grosjean would have been 7th, on the clean side of the grid. And we know what he is like with first corner/lap accidents... Play Ferrari at their own game.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

True, consistency is key.

That would have been utterly brilliant! Wish they'd done it. Still, 13 point gap now so Vettel needs to do what Hamilton did in Brazil a few years back, finish in a decent position and the title is his.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Ferrari have made it clear they waited until the last possible moment to do it in order to prevent RB from doing the same.

I'd love it if Webber took out Alonso the first corner.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I'd love it if Massa did that. Or Hamilton, just to wind up the knobhead.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Makes for an interesting finale

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

you do, the scrutineering teams oversee everything the teams do, its why they knew in Abu Dhabi that vettel had run out of fuel despite the team telling them renault had said it was an engine problem so stop the car. the scrutineers had watched them put fuel in and take it out all day in an attempt to confuse them but the guys kept count properly so he was asked for a fuel sample they knew he'd be light on.

all part of the game between the teams, each other and the officials

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Vettel is a fantastic driver in my opinion, but if he stays with Red Bull for the majority of his career then nobody will know just how good he is!

I don't want him to move to Ferrari but another top team would be good and see how he fares then! Kimi and Vettel at Lotus would be fun.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Kimi and Vettell at Red Bull would be even better.

Two quickest cars, no favourite and proper racers.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Actually that would be better!!!!

On a different note has anybody been to the Bahrain F1 Grand Prix before?

Went to Silverstone and Yas this year and thought I would try another 'local' one for next year. Tickets and flights look really cheap but it doesn't seem the safest place to be!

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Alonso deserves the win more than Vettel, he's been struggling with a far less competitive car over the last year, Vettel has had the quickest and (barring a dodgy alternator), more reliable car in 2012.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I don't understand why that means he deserves it?

Man Utd didn't have as good a team as Man City last year but because it was so close at the end they deserved the title....eh?

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Vettel is German hence he should not win! :p

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Don't get me wrong, the Germans are still German. I'll also happily admit that Alonso is a ****ing prize bellend, leader of the dickheads, master of all things ****wittery and emperor of ****.... but because his car isn't as good doesn't mean he should win.

Rory McIlroy is the best golfer in the world but he isn't going to win in Dubai this weekend.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Alonso shouldn't win because his car is shit compared to Vettel's, he should win as he is a better driver than Vettel! Put them in the same car and Vettel would be crying on a daily basis...

It's the same story as Button (to a certain extent), he was awesome in the Brawn when it was by far the best car on the grid, but once he came to McLaren he has been in Lewis' shadows (most of the time)...

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

I just don't see that being the best driver makes you the deserving champion. They do have influence in the car and its setup etc.

Van Persie might score 100 goals this season but if the rest of the team aren't up to scratch, they won't win the league.

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Red Bull's success over the last few years is the product of Adrian Newey's genius engineering talent. The driver (in this case Vettel) has impact by giving feedback on setup and handling, but that's about it.

F1 cannot be compared to football! Even remotely..

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Not a good analogy there, the teams are made up of 20 odd players in a season, it's also down to the manager and, although I hate to say it, the whinging scotsman is a far better manager than the italian.

Vettel comes across as such a decent guy, don't know anyone who has a bad thing to say about him, but, as was said, he has had by far the best car of the season and the fact that Alonso is still in with a shout (albeit a slight one at that), shows just how good he is as a driver, and it is after all, the Driver's Championship, Red Bull have already won the Constructors one, ran away with it really.

Vettel will win it, but Alonso deserves it.