Originally Posted by norsk (Post 10391875)

Red Bull's success over the last few years is the product of Adrian Newey's genius engineering talent. The driver (in this case Vettel) has impact by giving feedback on setup and handling, but that's about it.

F1 cannot be compared to football! Even remotely..

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10391886)

Not a good analogy there, the teams are made up of 20 odd players in a season, it's also down to the manager and, although I hate to say it, the whinging scotsman is a far better manager than the italian.

Vettel comes across as such a decent guy, don't know anyone who has a bad thing to say about him, but, as was said, he has had by far the best car of the season and the fact that Alonso is still in with a shout (albeit a slight one at that), shows just how good he is as a driver, and it is after all, the Driver's Championship, Red Bull have already won the Constructors one, ran away with it really.

Vettel will win it, but Alonso deserves it.

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10391952)

Alright, I'll say it minus any comparisons.

Being considered the 'better' driver doesn't mean you should win the world title. You have to win more races, win more points and be more reliable. End of.

Originally Posted by norsk (Post 10391970)

of course you have to get more points to win, but that is the absolute measure. the 'deserve' factor is based on feeling and emotion.

Let me put it like this;

Vettel has a better car than Alonso hence he should win. Alonso is a better driver than Vettel (in my opinion) hence he deserves to win. However it wouldn't surprise me if Hamilton wins the last race (he deserves it) and Massa has a role to play....Ferrari have been dirty for many years, why would they suddenly stop now!

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10391952)

What about Webber then? Surely their cars are not so different that Vettels is miles quicker? Webber wouldn't stick for that.

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10391975)

I completely understand where you're coming from, I'm just telling you that you're wrong ;);););) (In my opinion before you take that the wrong way)

Originally Posted by norsk (Post 10391979)

I know. Don't worry. I'm just arguing with you. :thumbsup: We will never agree..

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10391994)

Not until you admit you're wrong.

But anyway. What about Kimi. Will he be at Lotus next year and will he have a chance? (my favourite driver by the way)

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10391994)

Not until you admit you're wrong.

But anyway. What about Kimi. Will he be at Lotus next year and will he have a chance? (my favourite driver by the way)

Originally Posted by norsk (Post 10392005)

has hell frozen over yet? are there pigs flying across the sky?

Kimi has a chance if he gets into a slightly faster car. Will he stay at Lotus? I haven't seen any evidence of him moving, but things will become clearer in the next couple of weeks. He is a brilliant driver, but unfortunately he shows zero personality to the press..

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10392083)

So....... Brazil then............

If Alonso wins, and Vettel is fourth, they are tied on 285 points each. What then?

Most wins? Sudden death play-off? Countback? Head-on-collision shoot-out?

Originally Posted by norsk (Post 10392113)

Surely this scenario is covered in the FIA rule-book. It probably comes down to something like most wins, which granted is more boring than your suggestions..

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10392119)

Yes it probably is covered in the rule book, but since I'd rather be struck by lightning than bother to read it, I wonder if anyone else knew...... not that I care.

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10392144)

Not surprising that the BBC and others have chosen Senna as the best driver ever, Vettel at 8, Alonso is number 10, Lewis is at 15, no other current drivers listed. I think we all could have guessed the top 3.

BBC

Full list

1 - Ayrton Senna

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10392219)

I disagree with doing this in any sport, it's way too difficult to compare people from different era's...don't you think?

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10392330)

I think the top 3 are a given, you could easily argue that any of those three could be number 1, and all for different reasons, I think it's in the right order though because of longevity that is why I believe, that Senna beats Fangio.

Stats

Senna 161 grand prix starts, 41 wins (25%), 65 pole positions (40%)
Fangio 51 grand prix starts, 24 wins (47%), 28 pole positions (55%)
Clark 73 grand prix starts, 25 wins (34%), 33 pole positions (45%)

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10392330)

I think the top 3 are a given, you could easily argue that any of those three could be number 1, and all for different reasons, I think it's in the right order though because of longevity that is why I believe, that Senna beats Fangio.

Stats

Senna 161 grand prix starts, 41 wins (25%), 65 pole positions (40%)
Fangio 51 grand prix starts, 24 wins (47%), 28 pole positions (55%)
Clark 73 grand prix starts, 25 wins (34%), 33 pole positions (45%)

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10393485)

As a casual rather than devoted observer, my first impression of the list is one of surprise at how high Villeneuve is (surely the 'least legendary' of the lot there?), and to wonder how much higher Vettel may rise by the end of his career...........

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10393485)

As a casual rather than devoted observer, my first impression of the list is one of surprise at how high Villeneuve is (surely the 'least legendary' of the lot there?), and to wonder how much higher Vettel may rise by the end of his career...........

Originally Posted by Cypselos (Post 10393917)

Are you thinking it's the son rather than the father? Jacques is nowhere near this list, though his career is all about what could have been. I think Hamilton is on a very similar trajectory.

Originally Posted by Inselaffen (Post 10393529)

6 wins from 68 starts. but an early death creates legends

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy (Post 10394198)

other than 9/11. (Or at least I can't recall that I can..

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10394218)

School sailing club got cancelled because of 9/11. Never understood why.

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10394231)

Dali-esque imagery? Masts collapsing, etc...........

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy (Post 10394198)

I can still remember very clearly where I was when I heard of Senna's death. Can't say that for any news event other than 9/11. (Or at least I can't recall that I can, if you see what I mean...:confused:)

Edit: Actually not true: Lady Di and Amy Winehouse. I'll probably think of some more...

Originally Posted by Boomhauer (Post 10394704)

Michael?

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy (Post 10394758)

Schumi bought it?

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10394798)

Jackson?

Originally Posted by Boomhauer (Post 10394823)

Ofcourse.

--

As for Schumacker, he's a fantastic driver, probably the best ever, but lacks sportsmanship.

Originally Posted by Boomhauer (Post 10394823)

Ofcourse.

--

As for Schumacker, he's a fantastic driver, probably the best ever, but lacks sportsmanship.

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10395643)

Disagree totally, he'll never be a Senna/Fangio/Clark, even Prost

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10395648)

Apples with Pears.

Cars and driving in the Senna era (for example) were hugely different to that of Moss or the modern era.

Like comparing Pele to Messi, so hard to do.

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10395660)

And he's a german, and he's a cheat.

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10395661)

I thought you were German?

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10395666)

That's fightin' talk where I come from (The Toon)....

Originally Posted by Kix (Post 10395660)

And he's a german, and he's a cheat.