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UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Old Aug 28th 2019, 4:26 pm
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Thumbs down UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

With just a few weeks before the Brexit deadline??
As a 3rd party observer....please allow me to say w..t..f?
I know everyone was calling him as bad as Trump but this is not what democracy is about is it?
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 4:49 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by Irishbeekeeper View Post
With just a few weeks before the Brexit deadline??
As a 3rd party observer....please allow me to say w..t..f?
I know everyone was calling him as bad as Trump but this is not what democracy is about is it?
Well, it depends on what you mean by democracy.

There was a referendum. The majority voted to leave the EU. At the time of the vote the PM of the day promised to enact the result practically the next day. He resigned instead.

Leaders of both major parties announced their commitment to delivering the results of the referendum. The PM signed Article 50 declaring the withdrawal from the EU. This was ratified by huge majority in Parliament, including the Labour opposition.

In the 2017 GE, both major political parties campaigned on delivering the referendum result. We can argue over how sincere Labour was, but it remains that leaving the EU was in their manifesto. Technically, 80% of the voters voted for a political party that had leaving the EU in the manifesto.

Theresa May cobbled together a deal for leaving the EU. It was a terrible deal, but it had the virtue of being as close to a compromise between both leave and remain factors as you could get. Parliament voted it down by a whacking great majority, not once, not twice but three times. But Parliament also did not put forward a deal or proposals for deals for leaving the EU. And in the process of voting down the Government, the same Parliament also revoked a number of long-standing precedence to force the Government's hand. Then Parliament also forced the Government to seek delays to Article 50 and leaving the EU, despite also not putting forward any plans for a withdrawal deal it could pass.

Now Johnson is resorting to another precedence to effectively bypass further efforts by Parliament to delay Brexit. What Johnson is doing is a perfectly legitimate function of the Government and one that is used all the time, at the end of every Parliament. Yes, you would be correct in arguing that it's just a trick to get Brexit over the final hurdles, but it's no more nor less than the tricks Parliament used in the past year to stymie or hold up Brexit. Anyone with half a brain also knows that Parliament would equally have abused a similar power to prevent No-Deal if they had it.

At this point it would be very hard to argue that many MPs in Parliament are interested in carrying out the results of the 2016 referendum, or even seeking a deal. The end goal for many is clearly to somehow stymie and cancel Brexit outright. They are sincerely committed to their beliefs and that they are doing the right thing for the country.

But it's also hard to argue Parliament is more democratic or has a moral weigh above Johnson's move to prorogue Parliament. Parliament *did* vote for Article 50, the two major parties had leaving the EU in their manifesto, they have not put forward alternative plans for Brexit and so far show no signs of proposing alternative deals other than another extension and delay or calling a second referendum or another GE, none of which are designed to deliver Brexit but somehow to stop it. The PM, by contrast, is exercising a power that is theoretically his by precedence, he is the duly elected leader and can command a majority in Parliament (ok, by one vote - so far).

So, how do you define democratic?
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 4:59 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post

So, how do you define democratic?
Boot the entire lot out of all houses, and hold fresh elections.
Ban all the old ones from running in elections ever again and get fresh faces in
in an ideal world I would call THAT democratic but ofcourse thats not going to happen

btw I guess even if you have another referendum on should or shouldn't a Brexit happen..it wont matter anymore right? I mean the EU will never allow a cancellation of Brexit now would they?
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 6:07 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by Irishbeekeeper View Post
Boot the entire lot out of all houses, and hold fresh elections.
Ban all the old ones from running in elections ever again and get fresh faces in
in an ideal world I would call THAT democratic but ofcourse thats not going to happen

btw I guess even if you have another referendum on should or shouldn't a Brexit happen..it wont matter anymore right? I mean the EU will never allow a cancellation of Brexit now would they?
There will likely be a GE by the end of the year. The question is whether it happens before or after 31 October. Proroguing Parliament gives Johnson greater advantage in when to call for a GE. If a majority votes no confidence in him when Parliament sits again in September, the timing and the precedence allowed to him as PM gives him room to theoretically stave off a GE till after 31 October, when the UK has exited the EU.

In the upcoming GE many of the old faces will be out for sure. Any Tory that votes against the government in a VONC will have the whip withdrawn and forbidden from standing as a Tory again. Then you have people like Sarah Wollaston, who was a Tory MP before switching to the Change UK party before switching again to LibDem, despite representing a staunchly Tory seat and one that also voted to leave the EU. Ironically, she earlier had argued for MPs who switched parties to have to stand in a byelection but refused to give herself that treatment! Or Nick Boles, whose constituency (which voted to leave) voted to deselect him but he refused to resign, while resigning from the Tory whip and now standing as an independent.

So, yes, faces will be leaving. That aside, these examples illustrate democracy is inherently messy so those who seek a greater democratic mandate for their stance are often hypocrites.
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 7:20 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Boot them all out - especially The House of Windsor
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Old Aug 28th 2019, 8:23 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
Boot them all out - especially The House of Windsor
It must be painful for you to acknowledge the Queen is half Scottish.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 4:14 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

You have to admire the balls of bojo even if you don’t like what he’s done.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 4:29 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
You have to admire the balls of bojo even if you don’t like what he’s done.
Not at all, what he has done is entirely within him being only ever about 100% me, myself and I. His selfishness and self centered dishonesty is not about having gonads of any description. IMHO
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 5:03 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

It's only for 5 days FFS (The net difference cos of the conference season). Remain have done their best - with the huge help from the Speaker - to railroad leave, remain had 3 chances to accept a remain loving vassal state treaty and refused it, and then we get Jo Swinson shouting her mouth out that even if the UK re-voted to leave again she would still not accept it, hers is the voice of bigotry and extremism, not democracy.

I reckon it makes an agreement with Brussels more likely, and therefore makes no deal less so.

The EU must be "merdeing" themselves.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 5:06 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
You have to admire the balls of bojo even if you don’t like what he’s done.
Mate, I voted remain and think what's happened is going to be a good thing. The furore and uproar is most people not understanding it and just getting caught up in videos on Facebook.

This might bring the EU a level of panic that we'll just ****ing leave regardless. Maybe it changes parts of the deal?
This makes the election potential and games around it all the more interesting.
It means Comrade Corbyn is highly unlikely to do another VONC because he lost the last one so miserably, if he loses again he'll have to leave as Labour leader because nobody will ever see him as credible.
The recognition that actually sometimes the 'best' PM for running the country might not be the best option for a disaster like Brexit. Stubborn, arrogant and ballsy might be the kind of character traits we need to get this shit show sorted.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 5:07 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
It must be painful for you to acknowledge the Queen is half Scottish.
Don't waste your efforts, you'll just get some mangled, arrogant and drunk response.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 5:09 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by mikemike View Post
Not at all, what he has done is entirely within him being only ever about 100% me, myself and I. His selfishness and self centered dishonesty is not about having gonads of any description. IMHO
It's all still rugger in the lower forth for him, isn't it? Russia and China must be pissing themselves at how easy all this has been. A few memes and sock puppet accounts and the Conversative party and their supporters still continuously walk towards the blast. Labour are no better, sitting back and waiting to rule over a baron wasteland of the aftermath.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 6:04 am
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by mikemike View Post
Not at all, what he has done is entirely within him being only ever about 100% me, myself and I. His selfishness and self centered dishonesty is not about having gonads of any description. IMHO
I have to disagree. If you think about it he has done exactly what he said he would. You just don’t like what he said he would do.

Compare and contrast to the self serving DC who got us into this mess. The ref was an act of appeasement due to his selfishness desire to be liked. If he had the balls to say no then we wouldn’t be here.
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Old Aug 29th 2019, 12:21 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
I have to disagree. If you think about it he has done exactly what he said he would. You just don’t like what he said he would do.

Really? I distinctly remember Boris Johnson insisting during the leave campaign that the UK would get a trade deal meaning borderless access to the single market, because it was in a strong negotiating position. And that they haven't planned for no deal, because "we're going to get a great deal".

So does he get to decide which of his promises he sticks to, and which ones he just ignores?

I'm happily a permanent resident in the EU, soon to have an EU passport. I haven't been to the UK for three years, and don't care if I never go back. So I'm really looking forward to watching the chinless wonders of Eton handle this one. I suspect the promises "it'll be fine" will go the way of "we'll get a great deal" and "nobody is suggesting leaving the single market" or "I'd vote to stay in the single market" when he was Mayor of London, as well as his comments about not wanting Trump to visit the UK in case Londoners have to bump into him.

Johnson is as accomplished a liar as Trump, and his supporters just as willing to forget what he previously says and get behind whatever he chooses to say today.

But let's remember this, and all agree. The UK government is making clear that it thinks it is prepared for no deal, and "will be fine". That's important.

If it happens, and it isn't fine, then that is on them. They could still ask for an extension if they want. But they've made clear they won't. So if it turns out the UK wasn't prepared, and never asked even for an extension, then that is 100% entirely down to the UK, and not the fault of the EU (agreements, by definition, require both sides to agree, and there is no obligation on either to accept terms they don't like, if they are prepared to accept the consequences). Similarly, they will blame the public "you insisted we left the EU, and we had to get on with it". Again, nobody forced them to do it in this way, they could easily have concluded a single market and customs union deal, which was entirely in line with the referendum. It was them who later insisted that the remain side was actually right in its scaremongering that voting to leave would be losing the single market and customs union benefits (despite leave's frequent denials).

But more than anything, I cannot ****ing wait.

Seeing the Eton fratboys presiding over the inevitable chaos will be absolutely *****ing epic, and worth trashing the entire country for a generation before it begs its way back in (and gives up Gibraltar to spain, and agrees to adopt the EUR).



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Old Aug 29th 2019, 12:36 pm
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Default Re: UK Parliament to be suspended in September?

I met a guy in a shopping centre few weeks ago, and got chatting as his daugher was doing a climbing frame thing with my kids during summer hols. Turned out he was a dutch guy who worked in Brussels (where coincidentally I had been two days earlier for the first time, between two flights) working for the EU commission.

Subject turned to brexit, and he suggested that the EU believes it will negotiate a better deal if the UK has left the EU, because the UK will be more desperate than ever. They will have already fired any ammunition they have, kind of like killing your hostage. And even the UKs own forecasts show a large economic downturn, and legal chaos (there are a whole bunch of laws in the UK which reference EU laws, or various regulation handled by EU agencies which the UK parliament has not yet passed laws to handle, or setup the required agencies), while the EU side has localized issues (Ireland) but those are manageable because Ireland is relatively small and has the whole of the EU behind it. They don't see any such situation lasting more than a few short months, as the UK will be facing economic ruin, with food and fuel shortages, and whole industries facing immediate collapse.

But they still believe that since Johnson must be privy to the same information that the UK will be hit severely by no deal, far worse than the EU, and his act is nothing more than trying to appear completely genuine about effectively going through with no deal. It's trying to convince the other party not that you are ready and will be fine with no deal, but rather that you genuinely think you have prepared and will be fine, in order that the other party thinks you will therefore actually do a completely irrational act. Rather like Greece did with the EU bailout... threatening to drop out of the EUR and crash the Eurozone, even though it would have meant oblivion (the EU deal required massive austerity for Greece, but the alternative was even worse, by far).

Essentially, Johnson is driving a small hatchback towards an articulated truck in a game of chicken, but trying to convince the truck that he actually believes he'll steamroller them and be fine, in order that the truck realizes that obliterating the hatchback but facing some superficial frontal bumper damage is not in their interests, and they should be the ones to blink first and steer around it. The problem is for the EU, that every small hatchback in future will take the same approach if it works. The EU's longer term prospects for protecting the single market and all the other aspects of the EU are to steamroller the hatchback, if it really won't turn off.

It does not help that Johnson is regarded not as an ideological brexitter, but as an opportunist whose primary instinct is survival, and who flip flops around if it suits him. Would anyone be totally surprised if Johnson for example came back with basically the same deal as TM, and then insisted it was completely different and everyone should vote for it?

Last edited by captainflack; Aug 29th 2019 at 12:39 pm.
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