Shiva

Old Apr 15th 2014, 11:25 pm
  #1  
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Default Shiva

What do you say?

Currently I am in back in Scotland- a place I feel at home in.
My ex husband- I am staying with him- is a professor of Law and is
very involved in the imminent vote.

All the time I have been on BE, you have posted wisdom.
So, show your hand...yes or no?
X
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 11:29 pm
  #2  
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Default Re: Shiva

This should be in the Pitt surely?
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Old Apr 16th 2014, 9:41 pm
  #3  
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Eva View Post
This should be in the Pitt surely?
should be a PM surely
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 6:59 am
  #4  
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Default Re: Shiva

yes.


below is a disjointed answer but it will suffice for now.

Its not a vote for the SNP despite what most will say. By definition after a yes vote there has to be a general election in Scotland at which point there will presumably be a Scottish labour, conservative, liberal etc party. The SNP may chose to continue but I suspect many will break away and join the other parties leaving the party a very different beast. So the Scots can vote for whoever they like but Salmond will not automatically become the Scottish Prime Minister, he will merely be a caretaker leader for a while. In all likelihood Scotland would gain a labour government for at least the first two terms by which point a significant opposition should have built up to even up the political spectrum.

The concept of UK democracy and Scotland is currently very broken. The Scottish people are ruled by an effectively unelected government enacting policies that almost every Scottish MP has voted against. For right or wrong this is not in any way representative of the electoral will.

That is a situation that must change dramatically.

The economic argument is fallacious and fear mongering on both sides but as far as I can find out Scotland is more than capable of supporting itself financially and in all likelihood will be slightly better off under independence.

There is a media wave regarding auld enemies and hatreds. Utter bollocks for all but the uneducated on either side of the border.


There is a strong history of enlightened politics and social responsibility emanating from Scotland and one that continues, however as the years pass this Scottish view on democracy and leadership increasingly differs from the leaders and policies imposed on the country by a larger electorate south of the border.

I fail to see how anyone in the UK and particularly Scotland can support the development of democracy as a concept and in practice around the globe whilst simultaneously seeing it erode and becoming less relevant at home.

The Scots have a chance to vote for the future of the nation, not for the next generation but for all generations to come.

Perhaps for the first time in history an ancient country, well versed in democracy has a chance to exercise those democratic rights to actively shape its future along the lines that the electorate themselves choose.
This is not an electorate about to vote for the first time or an ex colony riven with corruption pretending to hold elections.

The union was entered upon without the support of the populace from either side but will stand or fall on the vote of the populace, if not at this referendum but at all and any future ones.

As such the current political leadership from all parties and the media within the whole of the UK owe it to the whole of the union to present a well reasoned and well presented case for their respective arguments.
At this time not one party or individual is doing so and it is frankly disgusting.

For a short window in time the voice of the Scottish electorate will never ring louder in the ears of our politicians, we should demand honesty and integrity in our nations interests. If the nation votes no then so be it, I doubt much will change and what will will undoubtedly be worse for Scotland, but if we vote yes we can demand change, can demand a higher standard from our leaders and our future. For now is that short window when if they wish to retain any semblance of power they must listen and be seen to act in accordance to our views. 99% of the population despise the rule of the 1%, now is the time that can be changed, not for punitive revenge but to build a stronger fairer society for any and all.

Whatever happens it will be messy and there will be punitive repercussions, such is the nature of politics and power.

Should Scotland vote yes then there will of course be hundreds of issues that need to be addressed and ironed out between the two nation states, none of these however are relevant to the fundamental question.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

the question isn't "Can?"
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:01 am
  #5  
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Default Re: Shiva

I think that they should be an independent country. Then we can properly invade them and bring them back home (once all the ginger people have been annexed in the Isle of Skye.)
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:25 am
  #6  
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
The concept of UK democracy and Scotland is currently very broken. The Scottish people are ruled by an effectively unelected government enacting policies that almost every Scottish MP has voted against. For right or wrong this is not in any way representative of the electoral will.
Would you agree that a Swiss style direct democrasy is best solution?
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:34 am
  #7  
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Default Re: Shiva

The union was entered upon without the support of the populace from either side but will stand or fall on the vote of the populace, if not at this referendum but at all and any future ones.

As such the current political leadership from all parties and the media within the whole of the UK owe it to the whole of the union to present a well reasoned and well presented case for their respective arguments.


If only the Scots get to vote, why does the rest of the union need a reasoned case?
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:49 am
  #8  
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
[I]

If only the Scots get to vote, why does the rest of the union need a reasoned case?
because Westminster is leading the better together campaign for a start.

Also if Scotland is indeed a valued part of the UK it would only be right to suppose that the unions other nations may wish to state a case for the Scots staying.

The loss of oil revenue will also greatly impact the remaining states economy, it may be an idea for them to make a case for the continued maintenance or loss of that payment. If I were English for example I'd want to know where the shortfall of a few Billion a year will be coming from
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:53 am
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
The loss of oil revenue will also greatly impact the remaining states economy, it may be an idea for them to make a case for the continued maintenance or loss of that payment. If I were English for example I'd want to know where the shortfall of a few Billion a year will be coming from
Exactly. This is why we (engalnd) should not allow this. Unless we really are planning on invading later to take it without having to share the money.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:55 am
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Boomhauer View Post
Would you agree that a Swiss style direct democrasy is best solution?
in some cases yes others no. In smaller countries its certainly an option and easier to manage. However there is a danger with Direct Democracy that government is in effect powerless and that the country does nothing other than vote all the time with no action ever being taken.

No system is perfect and one of my "yes" arguments is that in a new nation we could have the choice to debate and possibly enact some changes to the current system encompassing the better ideas and practices from other systems.

As it is the institutional momentum and history of Westminster is such that any real change will likely never happen or take decades to change incrementally.

Proportional representation only came about in Scotland as a result of the last referendum when politicians were eager to please. Its a ****ed up version but a change non the less
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:58 am
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
Exactly. This is why we (engalnd) should not allow this. Unless we really are planning on invading later to take it without having to share the money.
And therein lies the rub.

Spreading Democracy to somebody else far away is a great idea but when your tax bill will rise and your neighbors become genuinely foreign then peoples views change somewhat.

Oh and you're all welcome to try
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:00 am
  #12  
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
The union was entered upon without the support of the populace from either side but will stand or fall on the vote of the populace, if not at this referendum but at all and any future ones.

As such the current political leadership from all parties and the media within the whole of the UK owe it to the whole of the union to present a well reasoned and well presented case for their respective arguments.


If only the Scots get to vote, why does the rest of the union need a reasoned case?
Scots not living in Scotland will NOT be able to vote.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:06 am
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Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
Scots not living in Scotland will NOT be able to vote.
subject to an ongoing legal case!
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:08 am
  #14  
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Default Re: Shiva

I wonder what the results would be if the rest of the UK voted on whether they wanted Scotland to stay or go.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:54 am
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Default Re: Shiva

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I wonder what the results would be if the rest of the UK voted on whether they wanted Scotland to stay or go.
We would shoot ourselves in the foot. The 'ginger bastards can **** right off' vote would prevail. Then our tax and energy bills would go up.
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