Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

And one man in particular......... who would have still only have been 29 in 1966, and only 33 in 1970.........

Only saw him on film, but my dad (who knew his football) reckoned Edwards combined the best of Franz Beckenbauer with the best of Bobby Moore. Good enough. And Bobby Charlton rated him too.........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...td/7216050.stm

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

7.04 pm Dubai time tomorrow. :(

for me will be a moment of silence

Geoff Bent
Roger Byrne
Eddie Colman
Duncan Edwards
Mark Jones
David Pegg
Tommy Taylor
Liam Whelan
Walter Crickmer
Bert Whalley
Tom Curry
Alf Clarke
Don Davies
George Follows
Tom Jackson
Archie Ledbrooke
Henry Rose
Eric Thompson
Frank Swift
Kenneth Rayment
Bela Miklos
Willie Satinoff
Tom Cable

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Just shows you how our football has changed...... God forbid, it were to happen to any Premiership team today, you would barely find an English name on the list, let alone any Bert's, Henry's, Archies, Don's, Walter's, or Duncans' !!!

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Thanks for the time check Insel - that's 6.04pm here (wasn't aware of the exact time). I'll join you in your tribute, so to speak - not a Manchester United fan, but this was too big for tribal loyalties to obscure.

Interesting to see Frank Swift in the list - a former Manchester CITY player who had become a sports journalist.

Grief is universal.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

isn't Duncan a Scots name?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Please don't trivialise this thread, JVR.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

I won't tell give you the words of the song sung by West Ham fans to Man U fans about it then !

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

are they more or less generally offensive than I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

its will probably be the usual sick Ice on the Runway song which shows the average mentality of football supporters.

I am sure there are man united supporters who sing sick things about Hillsborough as well!

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

what also shows the difference is that the 13 days after 8 of the 1st team died and most of the others suffered serious injuries the club played in the FA Cup. Cannot imagine that happening today.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

About the same as far as offensiveness goes, but as ever the minority of football supporters who chant this stuff / use violence etc, soil the good name of 99% of people who go to watch a game for the love of their team, or the game itself....Cant see that ever changing unfortunately.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

No, it wouldnt happen today, take a few weeks ago when Phil O'Donnel, captain of Motherwell died, as sad and as tragic that was, the midweek / weekend games were cancelled in the SPL......Begs the question....Are we more respectful of tragedies like that now as a nation, (and especially after Diana's death), than we were in the 50's when I guess the country was more hardened to such things, with the second world war still fresh in people's minds ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Also the question, were the team members who were in that fatal crash feted as great footballers, or as 'celebrities'? In those days I'd imagine that when they were in the papers it would have been about some goal they scored/saved/whatever, and not for roasting a teenager, or assaulting a bouncer inter alia. And at that time, the fan base was probably based in Manchester, not like now where the whole franchise is a corporate giant, but more about the football.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Also the question, were they all "great footballers" ? We always hear about Duncan Edwards and what a magnificent player he was, and some of the others too, but were they all that good or were their reputations enhanced through an untimely death, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Kurt Cobain like, and therefore through rose tinted memories ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

I've never been convinced with this argument though, that it is only the minority that sully it for the majority.

The majority are the ones that let it happen and thus condone it with their inaction. I remember going to the Leeds v Man Utd Youth Cup Final at Old Trafford in 1993. It was mainly youngsters in the crowd, but the majority element of Leeds "support" duly stood up throughout the match making aeroplane impersonations.

Then a few years ago Liverpool fans wrecked Old Trafford and scrawled "Munich Ha Ha" everywhere during a FA Cup semi final match. It may have been a minority but from what I heard noone from the majority spoke up and attempted to stop them. They condone it with their silence.

Last week Lewis Hamilton receieved abuse from what the Spanish are dismissing as a "minority". Yet these people were still let into the circuit dressed as a poor version of the black and white minstrels, and allowed to do their stuff by the majority.

No doubt a "minority" of city fans will whistle and boo during this weekends minutes silence, their will be lots of tut tutting but very little done by the majority. As a great man once said, don't become so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Duncan Edwards was clearly the star player. From everything I have heard he would have gone on to be one of the greatest England players. The others were also top players of their time. Remember this was a young team that was going for its third successive League title.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

[QUOTE= The majority are the ones that let it happen and thus condone it with their inaction......... I remember going to the Leeds v Man Utd Youth Cup Final at Old Trafford in 1993. It was mainly youngsters in the crowd, but the majority element of Leeds "support" duly stood up throughout the match making aeroplane impersonations.

[/QUOTE] So I trust you stood up and said something to them to get them to stop, or did you just tut, .....thereby by 'condone" it ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Twenty minutes to go - we can talk later Insel. I have persuaded three of the Saudi guys to stop work for a minute's silence - they weren't aware of the full history but we will have a quiet room at four minutes past.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

I am not a typical football fan but it is very very sad.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

One cold and bitter Thursday in Munich, Germany,
Eight great football stalwarts conceded victory,
Eight men will never play again who met destruction there,
The flowers of English football, the flowers of Manchester

Matt Busby's boys were flying, returning from Belgrade,
This great United family, all masters of their trade,
The pilot of the aircraft, the skipper Captain Thain,
Three times they tried to take off and twice turned back again.

The third time down the runaway disaster followed close,
There was slush upon that runaway and the aircraft never rose,
It ploughed into the marshy ground, it broke, it overturned.
And eight of the team were killed as the blazing wreckage burned.

Roger Byrne and Tommy Taylor who were capped for England's side.
And Ireland's Billy Whelan and England's Geoff Bent died,
Mark Jones and Eddie Colman, and David Pegg also,
They all lost their lives as it ploughed on through the snow.

Big Duncan he went too, with an injury to his brain,
And Ireland's brave Jack Blanchflower will never play again,
The great Matt Busby lay there, the father of his team
Three long months passed by before he saw his team again.

The trainer, coach and secretary, and a member of the crew,
Also eight sporting journalists who with United flew,
and one of them Big Swifty, who we will ne'er forget,
the finest English 'keeper that ever graced the net.

Oh, England's finest football team its record truly great,
its proud successes mocked by a cruel turn of fate.
Eight men will never play again, who met destruction there,
the flowers of English football, the flowers of Manchester

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

and now after all this time a witness has come forward to say that he walked on the wing after the crash and it was ice free,
at the time a german crash investigator stated it was caused due to a build of of ice on the wings that made the plane crash.
it has also now transpired that the affore mentioned german did not arrive at the scene for some six hour's, so ice would have formed whilst it was on the ground.
so justice at last for the pilot.
and a very sad day for football i agree.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

What the hell are you talking about?

The famous picture of the wreckage was taken less than one hour after the crash............. and there's an almost complete white-out.

Ice? Probably. Blinding snow storm? Without a doubt - the pilot couldn't see past the nose of the plane.

"Justice at last"? Wasn't aware of anything ever said that implicated the pilot. Have I missed something?

Insel?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle754520.ece

and no I don't read the sun!

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

A rather cynical view I saw on a football board this afternoon, but in my opinion, there is a lot of truth in it.....

Quote

"Without Munich 58 Manchester United would not be the club they are now...Fact !

They have cynically milked this for years and will continue to do so. If they're so bothered about it then why not have there own remembrance service allowing just fans in, without TV coverage, without corporate sponsors, just fans? I appreciate the vast majority of them would have to travel many miles to Manchester, that's if they could be bothered.

I find this all a bit to rich coming from the club that become the richess,most popular and most recognized in the world and a club that built it's foundations to become a footballing brand on the back of the Munich tragedy.

We all know that if you go to the club superstore at Old Trafford they are more than likely selling a 50th year anniversary DVD box set. "MUNICH.THE DAY THE CLOCK STOPPED.£19.99 inc P@P"

Now you are thinking i might be a bit out of line saying that. But ManU being the Brand that they are, you would'nt put it past them. Common courtesy dictate's i pay my respect's to the people who died in that crash

But maybe more than 8 players died at the end of that runway.

The monster that is the Brand was born out of this, and that is the biggest tradegy of all.

Unquote

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

thats absolute bollox!
if the club was out to make money from it they would be selling the shirts they are wearing on Sunday!

just some bitter arsehole!

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Dont you think though there is a degree of truth that the "attraction for Man Utd" today was born out of the tragedy ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

said the totally not jealous of Man U's success hammers fan...

MM, xx

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Not jealous at all, could think of nothing worse than supporting them !! However, in the same way some older football fans who supported other teams, developed a soft spot for West Ham as a result of the World Cup victory (Moore, Peters, and Hurst etc) in 1966, so too did the Munich tragedy "globalise" the name of Manchester United at that time and widen their appeal whether it be in England or around the world and more people became aware of them. I accept this was further enhanced through the likes of George Best and the like, but it must have started somewhere.

I cant imagine there were too many Man Utd fans living outside Manchester pre Munich 1958..... ?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

omg...this just went right over my head, lol...sorry, i'm sure it is a very serious and valid point...but as you ae aware, just knowing the team names is a result for me...

MM, xx

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Certain people have a fascination with death particularly in macabre circumstances.......hence the massive interest to date, in say JFK-and the rising number of 'followers' of Diana-11 years after the event.
Munich is an historical event inextricably linked with Man U as is Hillsborough and the Ibrox Disaster in Scotland.The advent of Man U's appeal preceded the Munich incident.............
Life is cheap it seems, however it takes a real stone faced cynic not to be touched by the immediateness with which so many young lives were snuffed out.Yes it has been brought to the forefront of our minds because of who they were and yes 50 0dd anonymous faces perish somewhere everyday in accidental/not so accidental circumstances.
Would you prefer that the Man U members were forgotten too?
If nothing else it should serve as a reminder-life is good and this ain't no rehearsal.

*When did Man U overtake Real Madrid as richest club?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Do you suppose Chelsea fans only live in Chelsea?

Man or the Club??

Ps Professor Ellis Cashmore, is a good read on the impact of Man U on society.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Erudite and well considered as ever, Ms Eva...

Doesn't Cashmore write an opinion column in the Indie?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

No, not at all, but its a well known fact / standing joke that most of the Man U fans in England live "South of Surrey"..........and please dont get me started on Chelsea !.......:frown:

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

I saw your quiz photo...If I was getting you started it wouldn't be to discuss no football club or flowershow babeh(as an absent friend used to say)


I lived in Benhavis, Costa Del Sol for a few years; then Scotland; then just outside Miami before UAE-the Reds are everywhere in numbers.

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Syb-he did but not sure if he still does.Big in the Journal of Socio....in demand media wise too and still has a chair in Yorkshire(???)...hours in a day 'n all that

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

ohh eva...you'll be making him blush...

MM, xx

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

He'd never be seen in a shade of red.................d'ya mean pink.?Am I in the wrong (Chelsea) garden?

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

i was thinking more claret, lol...

MM, xx

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Exactly my point.....they are bloody everywhere, and 99.9% per cent of thm have never been within 100 miles of Old Trafford......They just support a brand because they have been brainwashed by global marketing !!

Re: Lest we forget - 6 February 1958
 

Cos, I bush really easily !:o