Charismatic

Religious faith isn't really a choice people can make, no matter how desperatly you might try to be religious or not you can't really make a direct rational choice about your faith (unless you live in a place where the foundations and teachings of religion are so weak and corrupt they need legal protection to stamp out even the slightest hint of doubt or decent ).

For example there have been times when I wished desperatly that there was a god, heaven and afterlife but despite much searching and self deception none appears apparent, no amount of wishing would make it true for me. That is the crux of the problem with religious belief, you need to genuinly believe it's more than a reassuring fable.

Anyway I’ve read the bible, if you believe the old bit no one stands a chance of getting into heaven and in the new bit we are all going to be invited regardless. Covered from all angles!

sherri

Norsk and BB have given two really good reasons and then Sean Lock’s (MH) quality take on it.

If you are still not happy then check the History section at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

Also, If it was a beauty contest then it's a no-brainer. So which dick you want in the middle of yer forehead

Norm_uk

...condoms, not doing drugs with shared needles and generally responsible sexual behaviour.

Still why bother with all that when you can remove a part of the body that has more nerve endings that your lips...it's not like men are entitled to enjoy sex you know!

(I heard one women describe the different between cut and natural men as one is like being poked by a broom and the other is like being shafted by a piston - apologies if that's a bit vulgar but that's what she said!)

N.

Norm_uk

It should be banned by law for anyone under 18. We don't allow it to happen to women...why are we still alright with little boys being fiddled with by sickos?

N.

sherri

I understand your sentiment but somehow it wouldn’t work.

Imagine this:
Dad: Son what are you doing tomorrow?
Son: Nothing much old fart why whassup?
Dad: Great, would you mind coming along to the A&E?
Son: A&E!!! Why, what’s wrong is everything ok? Where is mum, mum..mum
Dad: Calm down yer mum’s just gone out to collect laundry
Son: Laundry!! Is there something wrong with the Washing Machine?
Dad: there is nothing wrong err.. well there is well and it’s kinda linked errr.. anyway be ready at 10am we need to go to A&E
Son: You didn’t say why the hell are we going to A&E
Dad: Well I would like to get yer dick chopped err.. I mean we need to get yer willy sorted Hahahahha
Son: Whattttt!!! Are you fking insane you fkn moron, I always had a suspicion, you sick bastard
Dad: Oi, calm down you twit, there is a logical explanation for this.......
Son: What the fck are you talking about, OMG I can’t believe this!!
Dad: Well can you please gimme a chance to explain this...
Son: No No No, I’m going out in fact I’m moving in with my girlfriend.
Dad: I am yer Dad Son, I love you, please listen to me
Son: Yea! you me Dad!! Fk off
Mum enters....
What the hell is going on in my house? What has happened, Where is my Son?
Dad: Yer House? I am the one who fkn worked me arse off to get us to.....
Mum: Save it, you and yer bloody moaning i’m sick of it
Son: Mum you wouldn’t believe what this sick monster wanted
Mum: What! You (evil look)!! Tell me
Dad: Why are you looking at me like this why don’t you ask your son
Son: He wants to take me to A&E to get me penis chopped
Mum: Oh! Is that it!
Son: Yaaa!! Did you know about this?
Mum: Yes, let me explain this to you, come here darling
Mum continues... Son when you were born, according to our ritual we wanted to get you circumcised but thanks to Norm we didn't. Plus scientifically it’s proven that it’s good for hygiene and male circumcision reduces the risk of contracting HIV significantly. Also, i don’t appreciate doing your laundry, the smell of your semen is everywhere and yer dad has specifically asked me not to mix his clothes with yours as his work mates think he is a wanker i mean literally. Don’t feel embarrassed pumpkin its not yer fault it’s due to the 20,000 very sensitive and pleasurable nerve in yer willy but circumcision will take care of this. Just go with yer dad tomorrow and within a week all will be ok.
Son: a Week!!
Mum: Yes honey they will take off some skin and put some dressing and it will heal within a few days
Son: This is too much mum, oh i am not sure
Mum: Don’t worry sunshine you’d be fine.
Son: Ok if you say so
Dad: At last! You don’t need to feel embarrassed; i’ll take you to the loo and do the dressing every time it just reduces the risk of an infection
Son: What! I don’t want this sick man to touch me. You should’ve left him a long time ago mum
Dad: What have I done now?
Mum: now now dont talk to yer dad like that, pause, you are right may be i should have, this man has never........and so on and so forth...

Meow

Nonsense. It's a choice that any adult can make. You choose to practice a faith. You aren't born a believer in anything. You are taught (or indoctinated)about it (education being something else altogether when it comes to religion), but as a sane adult you can question whether you actually believe or are following blindly.

Bahtatboy

Not if you've been indoctrinated and brainwashed since birth. They create heavy shackles to shake loose, even if you're able to acknowledge the existence of those shackles.

Meow

I'm not saying it isn't hard, but there is a choice, for those who are bright enough, educated enough or brave enough to make it.

Bahtatboy

Fair enough. What about the other 95% though?

Meow

They need education.

Charismatic

I can’t agree here Meow, why don’t you believe in a god just for a short period of time…

…do you believe yet? I’m sure you can hypothesis and postulate or perhaps recall what it felt like to believe but, like trying to forget something you don’t want to remember, it’s a futile struggle.

I think that could be why religions don’t encourage worshippers to explore other belief systems or philosophies in any great depth or play devil’s advocate with religion. Humans have a natural propensity to extrapolate knowledge and ideas using a rational method, since we can never stop thinking (especially about that thing we are trying so desperately not to think about) until we have reconciled an idea with the way we see the world.

A successful religion would be one that can satisfy human curiosity and answer questions in life in a way that is reconcilable with the idea of a god. The problem is religious texts are never updated, nowhere does it include the paradoxes of the double slit experiment and wave/particle duality of electrons, the origin of species etc., the best explanation religion can give is “…Lord works in mysterious ways” but answering a statement with a proposition is rarely going to be satisfactory .

They weren’t thinking of the future when they wrote these books, no one was prepared for needing an updated second edition (Now includes quantum mechanics and a modernised code of morality ).

sherri

Totally agree with Meow.

In my view the indoctrination and brainwashing has nothing to do with religion, it’s the cultural norms and interpretations that is dictating the world we live in. Everyone is using religion as a device to justify their cultural customs and transgression. Look at Saudi, they are one of the prime bigots. Are they practising the teachings of Islam? Also, their so called understanding and interpretation of Isalm is causing chaos in the world. Then the US and majority of the western world, are they actually practising Christianity, Israel gets the sympathy vote for its lunacy for defending itself but people fail to realise that Israel did actually invaded the country and made millions homeless, they needed a home for themselves and used religion as a weapon to justify their invasion. India, don’t get fooled by an innocent horizontal nodding dim-wit what goes around in their country in the name of Hinduism is sickening. China, there is a lot of evil behind those slitty eyes, is that because of religion? There is no end to this discussion and the solution is education, an education system without bias. That’s way I said before that Atheism can help in the short-term. Religions will always be there bacause we can never stop thinking (especially about that thing we are trying so desperately not to think about) until we have reconciled an idea with the way we see the world - thanks Charismatic for this line.

Also, Atheism can never be the permanent solution because it is also a religion, it serves a purpose to eliminate, by any means, any other faiths who doesn’t agree with their ideology and in the way they see the world.

Charismatic

Ends justify the means IMO.

Not sure about the education thing really, many very educated and thoughtful people I know are still religious (deism usually, not good at the following rules thing).

Not so sure about this one, mostly the things Atheists object to in religion are actually based on their concern as Humanists. The lack of causes religion (or perhaps more accurately Religion supplanted by new ideas, at least for me) a void that people fill with new forms of moral philosophy. Suddenly we do have a bit more of a problem with the head choppy thing, conscription of children to a belief and (in the case of this thread) legalized rape.

sherri

Atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of God, hence it is an ideology. Like all other religions Humanism is one of the elements in Atheism. So I'm not sure if they bring any added-value proposition from a communal perspective. Also, In Britain, most atheists have adopted a secular philosophy (Norm is an example) which fosters Colonialism and an in-efficient Socioeconomics system.

Hope this makes sense.

Charismatic

It is a kind of ideology in the sense that it’s a system of ideas but it’s poorly defined of course since there are no set rules.
Not sure about this, Atheists are everything from bourgeois capitalists to Trotskyites (often at the same time). I’m not sure what you mean either about secular governments being less efficient and colonialist. It sounds dangerously comparable to the American right wing Sarah Palin supporters argument about healthcare, which is of course to say ill considered. Some things are more efficient done by private industry and others through an organized collective effort .

More importantly, religious or not, humans have a moral obligation to uphold a basic standard of living for other humans (and guest workers ) in the areas of education, healthcare and social welfare. That is the true defining mark of a modern, developed society.