kittycat1

and the fact that most men get pressured into settling down, its women who want it all, men are quite happy to sow their oats and live a bachelors life with offspring strewn across the world ( OK OK not all men). And to be fair its not mens roles that have changed in the last 50 years, they have always gone off towork and had the little wifey at home but now that women have a career as well its women that struggle to fit it all in.

Meow

Are you saying that men are rubbish then?
-

Meow

I don't agree with that at all. Men are not pressured into 'settling down'. That's a daft fallacy.

Men's roles have changed. They are now far more central to the family and that can only be a good thing. I think you'll find that many men prefer it that way and are quite happy to be equal providers with their wives.
-

Bahtatboy

I think most of us could, but not nearly as well as most women do (emphasis on both occurrences of "most").

Nature and evolution have prepared women for childrearing, and men for work--its only in the last hundred years or so that opportunities have arisen for women to work exclusively of homemaking. So any shift is going to be rough and difficult, because we're looking at an incredibly small timespan during which this change is happening compared with the whole of human history.

seven seas

I meant humans when I said 'we'.

Meow

Seriously??!!

Why can men not look after their children as well as a woman?

Women have always worked in addition to child-rearing. If you go back in time, women of child rearing ages (apart from the wealthy) always worked with the older relatives and other siblings looking after younger children. For most people there was no choice.
-

Bahtatboy

Are we pressured into settling down? If I can work out how to do it, I'll set up a poll on that one.

"Equal providers": what does that mean? How many families have a wife and husband who are equal in what they provide? Very, very few, I think. And why this striving for equality--there never can be real equality because of our biological, natural and evolutionary differences, let alone the societal and familial ones.

Meow

Equality - of course we are equal! That doesn't mean that men and woman aren't different. Equal and idential have never meant the same things.

Surprisingly, in many couples the woman earns at much or more than a man, but we don't feel the need to make a song and dance of it all the time. Please don't use the UAE as an example as this town is frequently like the 1950's.

Bahtatboy

I didn't say men can't, I said (and I emphasised) that MOST can't as well as MOST women DO. Maternal instinct has got to count for something.

And I also made the point about women working EXCLUSIVELY OF HOMEMAKING. Yes, many women in history have worked, but not full-time in the way that is happening now.

seven seas

There are subtle differences- like the fact that women's hearing is way better than men's. So they can always bust your balls about using that tone of voice. (


Oh yeah, and they can tell when a baby is hungry, cold or in pain when it cries. To me it's just a baby crying.

I have to go through the whole cycle- check nappy for turd, stick bottle in mouth, check for any dingos chewing on the baby, and by step three , I will have found the reason.

kittycat1

Meow- Ok maybe I am going to extremes but I do believe men would stay single if they thought they could get away with it- maybe I've been single too long and known too many players but thats the way I see it. And yes mens roles have changed somewhat but nowhere near as much as womens.

I actually think my brother looks after his kids better than his wife, but she is the primary carer as he is the higher salary earner and she has never been interested in a career as such so it works for them. But I have other friends who have given up their careers to stay at home with the kids as its not been worth going back to work with childcare costs etc so their careers have effectively been put on hold or are over.

And as for the post coming from a woman- I'm asking is it possible to have a career, kids, a family and be good at your job, look after your kids and have a happy husband and to behappy yourself? My colleague says no, I would like to think yes but think actually its probably not possible to have all 3, its not that I'm some antifeminist but I think perhaps our expectations have been made too high to have become unacheivable.

Bahtatboy

I think we're straying into semantics here.

So what do you mean when you refer to "equal"? The same income? The same amount of time available? The same influences? The same amount of influence?

And how much is "many"? Are you seriously saying that going-on for 50% of couples the wife's income is more than the man's? C'mon...
And I have NEVER had a conversation with another man about his wife's income compared to his, even wrinklies like me don't see it as an issue. (And don't come back with the argument that they'd be too embarrassed, that won't wash.) (Yeah, keep UAE out of it, it ain't reality.)

Meow

There is a whole world of difference between being equally valid and important people and having equal incomes etc.

Since when has many meant 50%? Many means quite a few. I certainly know of many couples where the wife earns at least as much as her partner/husband. The percentages vary depending to a certain extent where people live and it is more prevalent in cities generally, London and the home counties. Bear in mind I get to know the truth about people's finances, so I have an advantage here, as most of us don't talk about our incomes even to close friends.

At least we are agreed that the UAE isn't reality. I am still surprised to be asked 'Do you work?' in some social situations as opposed to 'What do you do?' which is what you get in London.

MataHari

of course you can have it all...but it's up to the individual woman how much she will actually enjoy it...
not all women want it all, there are plenty that are happy with 'just' being a mum, or there are those that find their jobs so fullfilling that that is enough for them to thrive on...good on them.
I find the pressure that women put on other women to 'have it all' really annoying.

seven seas

Unachievable as in : be part of the system, earn, produce, spend, drive the wheels of the economy, spend, consume., earn some more and spend it.

Earn and work, be part of the system. Spend it on fun, be part of the system. You HAVE to have fun in one of the following ways... blah blah blah
consume this to have fun, or one of the following options...

You can have it all, you deserve to have it all, this is what a full meaningful life is. Otherwise you're a loser. Be a loser in one of the following ways.... blah blah blah


Actually they want to squeeze us into a different-shaped box that we can't fit into. And the box won't break, it us and our lives that getr mangled beyond recognition. Then the machine moves on to the next shiny happy person. As logn as we all think we're the ones who've failed, we wnot blame the system.