Desert Dubliner

Whatever, there is a song, but this certainly goes a long way to explain the extreme leftist viewpoint. A misanthrope would be a leftist by nature.

Desert Dubliner

Your logic is not improving in spite all the efforts I am putting in your education.

I did not compare myself to Galileo, what I did was to demonstrate on an example that having majority on your side does not guarantee you are collectively right.

Bob

No it does not.

In this case though, we are.

gruffbrown

You're quoting Jeremy Clarkson. My next car, yes. How I'm treated medically, no.

HarryTheSpider

It's one of the reasons why there are longer waits than perhaps there needs to be...

This doesn't mean private healthcare is better or worse, or that the NHS is better or worse.

Private healthcare has a lot to offer, and should be available. I think that the question of private vs state or socialised healthcare is a distraction from what I believe is the bigger question, which is...

... what kind of a society do we want to be, both as we perceive it, as well as how other nations perceive it? Within this, how do we want to treat the vulnerable, the infirm, those who can't help themselves, whether it's at the start of their lives, or at the end of it? And when things don't go according to plan, how do we want these situations dealt with? This brings in questions of ethics, or morality, dignity - both in life and in death...

In answering these questions we will then get insights in to how these services will be implemented, regulated, standards to be met etc, AND how they'll be paid for. NONE of this necessarily precludes state run, or privately run providers. But for me these questions are of greater importance than the debate of private vs state run providers.

And in answering all these questions we will need to be open-minded if we are to explore, experiment and find the solutions that we as a society can accept. Which means the extreme ends of both sides of the 'debate' so far need not attend while they continue to be closed to anything but their current positions...

HarryTheSpider

Clarkson is certainly a chuckle for me on things automotive. On several other topics he is a buffoon (same as me, as it happens...) and IMHO, this idea of his about dropping the NHS cover for those on over £30K, or even £1M, is right up there with top buffoonery - it will simply repeat for many the crappy situation that exists for way too many people in the US... (except the weather will be mostly worse...)

Eva

I hate arachnads
Harry deserves karma..not only from me..

HarryTheSpider

The moniker was inspired by this ad from my childhood in the UK...

HarryTheSpider

Just to stke the embers...

"Being American is bad for your health..."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-...b_2613222.html

Clearly a complex situation, but what I noted was how the socio-economic situation in the US contributes to one of the poorest health environments in the G20...

In otherwords, affordability...

So anybody who claims simplistically that the US/private-only healthcare system trumps all, especially the NHS, is simply talking bullsh1t, no matter how eloquently shouted their choice of words...

Desert Dubliner

Errr, it's not private only. There's Medicare and Medicaid. There's so much regulation that at the end the entire industry is effectively run by the state. Even Marx noted that it matters not who owns the means of production but who controls them. Hitler duly followed and left the industry in private hands while dictating what is to be produced and how. Mussolini did the same. But this has little to do with private enterprise which as a rule is capable of producing any good demanded by the market at low price. And I am to believe that for some reason it can't produce affordable healthcare. Nonsense

Bob

Aye, well unless you're broke poor or elderly, those options aren't open to you.

And regulation, it's a joke and a moot point.

Then again, you clearly don't understand, so what's the point.

Lion in Winter

I fear the Irishman is a true ideologue who does not wish to be confused by the introduction of facts.

HarryTheSpider

Well, I could be wrong as I've only lived in the US for a little over 2 years, and haven't been to every state. I've also not come across any providers that are state owned / operated. So it seems to me the providers at the point of use are private/commercial, rather than public. And given that the AMA and other groups have done an excellent job of nobbling the worst/best of the regulations that matter in Congress, one might forgive me for taking the view that regulation in the US, such as it is, is a very pale form of what might exist, say, in the UK, or even say, Taiwan or Korea...

Private enterprise is not always good at producing what is demanded by 'the market' at a low price. Not as a rule. But perhaps as a generalisation. It is good at deciding what markets it wishes to service, and providing what is demanded at the highest price the market can bear. Afterall, the majority of (quoted/incorporated) businesses exist to make a profit, and few other goals take primacy. Their reality is finding a balance between this aim and the desire of the market for low(er) prices.

And I do not refute that private enterprise cannot produce affordable healthcare - only that it generally doesn't. Not in the US, not for everybody. It's not a belief I hold - I see it as a fact, evidenced by the very different health costs that exist in the US compared to the rest of the G20 and other 'wealthy' nations... Often with the same providers operating in several of these markets.

Miss Anne Thrope

I assume you mean DesertDubliner - there are at least two others of us (Irishmen) also on this thread.. Anyway that's why most of us have given up arguing with him pointlessly. As long as he continues his substance-free ranting then we can at least enjoy ridiculing his blustering pomposity.

Miss Anne Thrope

Anyway, here's a thing (I know a certain poster does not like to offer links because they might actually lead to facts being exposed but I think it may be relevant to this "discussion"...):

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News...Countries.aspx

Not exactly a pinko liberal commie Kenyan death panel source either....