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Downloads and the DVD lady

Downloads and the DVD lady

Old Jul 12th 2010, 8:27 am
  #1  
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Default Downloads and the DVD lady

from the movie thread rather than hijack it completely

Originally Posted by Autonomy View Post
And stop funding terrorists and rapists and murderers and seal killers by downloading movies... .

I dont buy that idea, downloaded movies come largely from hollywood insiders who want to make some extra cash and then are re uploaded by about a million 14yr olds from home. Apart from the original upload and sale there is no money to be made by anyone, I exclude dodgy files containing spyware as again thats 14yr olds largely failing to make any money from pop up ads etc.
There is some activity notably from eastern European groups who use malware to create huge bot net armys but downloads are only 1 small source of idiots in their enormous arsenal

pirate dvd's certainly have a huge crime element attached but tbh even that industry has now extended well beyond funding small terror groups and is now a huge income maker for very large organised crime, given that the laws against piracy are far more lenient than those against extortion, rape and plunder the syndicates involved have evolved into an equally lucrative dvd business and moved away from "serious" crimes with serious consequences.

capitalism at its very best i'm afraid

IF and its a big IF you are buying dvd's in peshwar , NWFP or chechnya then yes you are undoubtedly funding terrorists, however pretty much any other dvd's are coming out of Chinese "triad" owned manufacturing facilities from across SE Asia and whilst certainly an unsavory bunch these gangs pretty much stay away from terror campaigns, not because of any qualms about it but simply because its bad for business.

the pirate dvd industry is no small back alley terror business but an extremely large and hidden corporate industry complete with global distribution networks.
The gross revenues of these producers probably dwarfs half the businesses in Europe and the US

hollywood needs to wake up, the piracy horse is out the stable and half way round the course, if the studios want to catch up then movies will have to be a $1-$5 download and at high bandwidths. IP (intellectually property) theft may be wrong and illegal but as long as consumers dont fear the law and are forced economicaly to break said law the situation wont change.

The music and movie industries have been stumbling, bumbling and generally failing at dealing with this problem for 20 years and every year prove that they have absolutely no understanding of the marketplace and the force of the internet within it.
30yrs ago the industry wanted to stop people buying blank tapes and vhs videos. To record tv or the radio was illegal then it was legal for personal use but had to be deleted within 30 days effectively making every individual in the UK a criminal.
when a law does that its clearly unworkable and ridiculous.

the classic tale/case study is cd sales and itunes, whilst hailed as a success even itunes has hardly slowed the decline is legal sales of music.
when a consumer can buy and rip a cd/dvd for cents they are understandably pissed when asked to part with $15 for the same thing legally.
as the argument from the producers is that production costs, IP right etc are the main force in pricing the consumer is somewhat pissed to find that the artist and or creator of said IP actually gets a very very small percentage of the actual end cost, the second part of the argument is that distribution costs are high, hang on, virgin records is a place i have to go to, the dvd lady comes to my door, its a better distribution network that costs me less.

in a market that is purely driven by price regardless of laws and IP rights then legal producers can either join the price war and win by sheer dint of size and economic depth or go out of business. Its not rocket science and there are numerous studies, books, trials etc that show what needs to be done.

Unfortunately the music and movie industry are so stuck to a model which no longer works that it is they and not the end user who are endangering the very industries they represent. Evolve or die its that simple.

To clarify before I get shot down too badly, I actually do support a producers right to earn a living from their IP, however and its not me saying this but the global laws on IP rights need a massive overhaul to protect not the owners of the IP (usually its not the producer that owns it) but the actually producers who tend to make comparatively little from their creative endevours.

There is some hope in the UK as the new government has promised to look at the so called Dyson bill, which whilst aimed at inventors (my own area of interest) will probably help to change the law so that all IP rights are protected in a way that allows people to make money from their creations whilst also allowing its entry into the market at a reasonable cost to consumers.

an idea, creation, piece of art, music or movie is worth nothing to its creator if it can only be sold at a price the market wont tolerate and at a price that actually encourages piracy.

Rant over

Discuss or not...
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 9:17 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
from the movie thread rather than hijack it completely




I dont buy that idea, downloaded movies come largely from hollywood insiders who want to make some extra cash and then are re uploaded by about a million 14yr olds from home. Apart from the original upload and sale there is no money to be made by anyone, I exclude dodgy files containing spyware as again thats 14yr olds largely failing to make any money from pop up ads etc.
There is some activity notably from eastern European groups who use malware to create huge bot net armys but downloads are only 1 small source of idiots in their enormous arsenal

pirate dvd's certainly have a huge crime element attached but tbh even that industry has now extended well beyond funding small terror groups and is now a huge income maker for very large organised crime, given that the laws against piracy are far more lenient than those against extortion, rape and plunder the syndicates involved have evolved into an equally lucrative dvd business and moved away from "serious" crimes with serious consequences.

capitalism at its very best i'm afraid

IF and its a big IF you are buying dvd's in peshwar , NWFP or chechnya then yes you are undoubtedly funding terrorists, however pretty much any other dvd's are coming out of Chinese "triad" owned manufacturing facilities from across SE Asia and whilst certainly an unsavory bunch these gangs pretty much stay away from terror campaigns, not because of any qualms about it but simply because its bad for business.

the pirate dvd industry is no small back alley terror business but an extremely large and hidden corporate industry complete with global distribution networks.
The gross revenues of these producers probably dwarfs half the businesses in Europe and the US

hollywood needs to wake up, the piracy horse is out the stable and half way round the course, if the studios want to catch up then movies will have to be a $1-$5 download and at high bandwidths. IP (intellectually property) theft may be wrong and illegal but as long as consumers dont fear the law and are forced economicaly to break said law the situation wont change.

The music and movie industries have been stumbling, bumbling and generally failing at dealing with this problem for 20 years and every year prove that they have absolutely no understanding of the marketplace and the force of the internet within it.
30yrs ago the industry wanted to stop people buying blank tapes and vhs videos. To record tv or the radio was illegal then it was legal for personal use but had to be deleted within 30 days effectively making every individual in the UK a criminal.
when a law does that its clearly unworkable and ridiculous.

the classic tale/case study is cd sales and itunes, whilst hailed as a success even itunes has hardly slowed the decline is legal sales of music.
when a consumer can buy and rip a cd/dvd for cents they are understandably pissed when asked to part with $15 for the same thing legally.
as the argument from the producers is that production costs, IP right etc are the main force in pricing the consumer is somewhat pissed to find that the artist and or creator of said IP actually gets a very very small percentage of the actual end cost, the second part of the argument is that distribution costs are high, hang on, virgin records is a place i have to go to, the dvd lady comes to my door, its a better distribution network that costs me less.

in a market that is purely driven by price regardless of laws and IP rights then legal producers can either join the price war and win by sheer dint of size and economic depth or go out of business. Its not rocket science and there are numerous studies, books, trials etc that show what needs to be done.

Unfortunately the music and movie industry are so stuck to a model which no longer works that it is they and not the end user who are endangering the very industries they represent. Evolve or die its that simple.

To clarify before I get shot down too badly, I actually do support a producers right to earn a living from their IP, however and its not me saying this but the global laws on IP rights need a massive overhaul to protect not the owners of the IP (usually its not the producer that owns it) but the actually producers who tend to make comparatively little from their creative endevours.

There is some hope in the UK as the new government has promised to look at the so called Dyson bill, which whilst aimed at inventors (my own area of interest) will probably help to change the law so that all IP rights are protected in a way that allows people to make money from their creations whilst also allowing its entry into the market at a reasonable cost to consumers.

an idea, creation, piece of art, music or movie is worth nothing to its creator if it can only be sold at a price the market wont tolerate and at a price that actually encourages piracy.

Rant over

Discuss or not...
agree about downloading, it's not a criminal gang set up...pirate cds/dvds etc are massively linked with the mafia, triads etc...they use it, bizarrely, as money laundering as it's not as "bad" as other crimes...

when i was working for the music industry association which fights piracy, our office in canton was raided by armed triads...we had other armed hold ups in eastern europe etc...piracy/counterfeiting is a dirty business for sure...

MM, xx
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 9:57 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Haven't see the two DVD ladies who used to come our way for sometime. Maybe the loose is tightening around them. Only invited them in for a cup of tea anyway!
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 10:11 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

I agree with a lot of your points and am pleased that the important right to be paid for your creation (whether it is the artist or director or indeed the record company / movie studio) is central to this whole thing.

From industry reports P2P is on the decline, but illegal downloads are significantly increasing through the use of cyberlockers such as Rapidshare. Where the criminal element enters the download world is that cyberlockers can be monitized - sites that look and feel like itunes are in existence where you get some free content or you can subscribe for a small fee to access all content. It's very slick and sophisticated - there was a music version a while back called allmp3.com or something like that.

These subscription sites do generate serious cash for the same organised crime organisations.

I was being tongue in cheek with the murder / terrorist reference, but there is no doubt that downloading does generally benefit crime syndicates and reduces the ability for record companies and movie studios to produce as many products and the ones they do produce will be mass market to produce a more surefire revenue.

The studios and the UK government (to name 2 stakeholders) are currently trying to "educate" consumers that downloading is akin to smoking or drink driving in that it was once generally viewed is ok and everyone did it through initiatives and education consumers now generally don't drink drive or smoke... They are also emphasizing the positive "do the right thing" attitude....

I also agree pricing and availability (classic market drivers) are key to the issue - I like the ISP "tax" idea where bundled "hidden" in your monthly fee is a proportion that can be allocated to content producers and the consumer can have a all you can eat content source...

At the end of the day it is the consumer alone that decides if it is "cool" to download for free or to pay for what they consume. Currently the majority is ok with that concept - over time and with industry pricing initiatives, easier and better distribution methods, value added elements etc then the consumer will then perhaps download less and pay a fair amount (as set by the market) for what they what to consume, where they consume it and how often etc...

Anyway - now I've written way more than I planned to - but fair play to your initial post.
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 10:42 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Shiva - you might like this - it's not about piracy but about the future of media distribution and pricing etc - interesting stuff....

http://www.mediafuturist.com/
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 11:01 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Downloading is free...whoever puts stuff online is breaking the law for sure but gains nothing from it.

Buying dodgy DVDs often helps organised crime rackets, especially groups like the triads and sometimes terrorist groups (depending on if you buy from Chinese or other people).

Drugs, money laundering (including a lot of Dubai based companies and property developers) and some prostitution rackets have clear links to terrorism and mafia type gangs. More shocking is the number of charities that funnel money to terrorist groups. There are several books about this (which you won't find in any UAE bookshops for sure!).

N.
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 11:32 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

will chime in later properly but for now a pic. will check out that site. Have your read "the long tail" some interesting stuff in there as well

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Old Jul 12th 2010, 11:49 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Arf.

Yes The Long Tail is a good read - Chris Anderson's new book is also meant to be worth a read.
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 6:17 pm
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

this pretty much says it all, long but well worth the time. This chap "gets it"



again v good



oh and i really would download a car if i could IP rights be dammed
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 8:30 pm
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Just curious how you suggest implementing freemium type models into legacy businesses?

for example, I don't know you or your business model though you mentioned inventors. How would, say, Dyson implement a freemium type model? Great hoover for free just the super clever attachment is premium? Cars? Utilities?

With movies - perhaps back catalogue is free and you pay only for new movies? The creators of the old movies would also need a share of that revenue, local licensors need share of world revenue etc....

Anyway - you don't have the answers (or if you do can we please go into partnership?) - but curious to hear what you think on implementing these high concepts....
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Old Jul 12th 2010, 9:57 pm
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Originally Posted by Autonomy View Post
Just curious how you suggest implementing freemium type models into legacy businesses?

for example, I don't know you or your business model though you mentioned inventors. How would, say, Dyson implement a freemium type model? Great hoover for free just the super clever attachment is premium? Cars? Utilities?

With movies - perhaps back catalogue is free and you pay only for new movies? The creators of the old movies would also need a share of that revenue, local licensors need share of world revenue etc....

Anyway - you don't have the answers (or if you do can we please go into partnership?) - but curious to hear what you think on implementing these high concepts....
Honest answer is I have no idea what the answer is but I do know that the current situation is untenable and that a revolutionary change is needed in the way we look at IP and license it. Take for example music and movies the hard line of protectionism currently followed is making almost no difference in controlling illegal downloads.


Piracy of any and every kind is as old as content/Ip etc creation, before we have had to reinvent models and laws to combat it slowly, now with digital distribution the problem is magnified by orders not fractions.

1st point re inventions and freemium probably won’t be a solution here but this is a notorious one as due to the current set up it really is only is large corporations who can afford to patent and then protect anything.

Ok a very very small number of individuals manage to break into the market but last time I looked at the numbers it was in the 10ths of percent that manage with the remaining 98.??% spending on average $30,000 simply to lose it all with the last 1% or so selling to corporations for a tiny tiny fraction of what the invention is really worth. (dyson invented the ball wheelbarrow early in his career yet make only a little from it, he then made his first dyson hoovers in Japan as the IP rights there proved more cost effective)

eg the cost of protecting a widget globally of simple construction and design which might be manufactured for a penny could easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and then the cost of litigation easily into the tens of millions and given that any inventor would likely not make that cost back over the products lifespan its only the big boys who can afford to play.
Either that or you take a chance at making some money before the idea gets copied by the Chinese
It is now at a point and particularly in the UK where innovation is now stifled, hence dysons push to make changes

with movies and music freemium makes far more sense perhaps as you suggested but with digital distribution most of the middle men could be cut out and thus the costs lowered, yes side industries would die but then in any industry as technology advances some niche suppliers will die as new ones spring into life. eg distributors would be crippled but producers of software for library creation akin to iTunes and windows media player would and are thriving.

it would be interesting to see actually figures for sales of back catalogue stock since itunes emerged for example as I suspect that items that were effectively dead are now generating revenue once more even if it is at a lower sales cost.

another interesting point is that creators who would never have had a chance before free downloads are now making money and becoming mainstream off the back of that piracy, smaller more niche content is thriving because there are no cost barriers, whether they survive and can make a living over the long run is yet to be seen but it’s a chance that would never have existed before.

re utilities its actually an odd one, take for example power stations and power generation, companies like GE and Siemens who actually make turbines etc for power stations now sell their product at a very marginal profit with the bulk of profits now coming from service agreements, not freemium but minimum premium on the equipment with the profit in the add on services.

Freemium is an interesting idea which is already working in some areas, is it the complete answer, probably not for most things but definitely for some but it is a step in the right direction.

The idea that change is not only a necessity but is achievable through innovative models in pricing and distribution is the only possible way of thinking and moving forwards in all IP related industries.
The alternative is a continued rise in piracy until nobody makes any money and production stops for all those for whom it isn’t a hobby.

as for my business, funnily enough due to the recent global brain and economic fart I have remodelled my business in what I now know to be a freemium oriented way, perhaps that’s why it resonates with me as an idea.
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Old Jul 14th 2010, 7:49 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

do not even attempt to illegally download 'hot tub time machine'. watching this movie will induce death.
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Old Jul 14th 2010, 9:07 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Originally Posted by redheart View Post
do not even attempt to illegally download 'hot tub time machine'. watching this movie will induce death.
hahahahaha, on a par with sex and the city 2 then...

MM, xx
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Old Jul 14th 2010, 11:04 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Does anyone else think that the title of this thread sounds like an avant-garde cartoon or an indie band?
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Old Jul 14th 2010, 11:06 am
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Default Re: Downloads and the DVD lady

Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Does anyone else think that the title of this thread sounds like an avant-garde cartoon or an indie band?
Or a Steely Dan song?
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