Norm_uk

Many people have tried a joint or two and most of them are not crack heads and heroin addicts today. I think that's a weak arguement really - there's no conclusive data proving cannibis' role as a gateway drug.

Given that no one has ever died of a cannibis overdose and the nature of the drug generally relaxes and calms people (not too many cannibis induced wife beatings going on unlike booze for example) I don't think it should be illegal.

For thousands of years it was legal and it was basically only in the early 20th Century most due to racism and bad science that it was banned. I suspect cotton farmers didn't like the idea of a weed being able to produce more useful crops than theirs helped as well.

N.

Norm_uk

I've been thinking about this issue and feel that even if a drug was invented that had no side effects and wonderful positive psychotropic qualities it would be banned because it seems the war on drugs (especially in the USA) has more to do with stopping people enjoying life outside a Judeo-Christian framework of morality that actually protecting people.

That aside prohibition isn't working - heroin is cheaper now than it was in the 1970s and there's a huge criminal industry supported by drugs (including terrorists). Legalising drugs will at the very least make the criminals poor and cut off terrorists arms money and reduce gang warfare...

...so I think it would be a good start to legalise most drugs, control the doses available and help weed off those addicted to "hard drugs"...surely that is cheaper than policing and fewer people will die?

N.

littlejimmy

Legalise it, licence it, control it and more 50% of crime will go away. People will then have access to clean and safe drugs and programmes to help their addictions. Heroin is actually less addictive and harmful than paracetamol if it is clean. Why we haven't learned the lessons from the alcohol prohibition in 1920s USA is beyond me.

Basically, what Norm said.

Eva

It is the drug which has caused most deabate in terms of classification and legalisation.It remains illegal and has been reclassified back up to Class B.
There must be reasons for that.I am not in a position to tell the best brains in the country(UK) they are wrong.

While there appears no phsyical addiction,it certainly causes psychological dependency.It is also a mind altering substance.
Yes it is reputed to produce a feel good factor however there are many who suffer serious psychosis; that behaviour like alcohol abuse, affects other family members badly.It can also cause depression -I have known a few habitual users who have committed suicide.

Those dabbling in its use are receptive to drugs,curiousity factor will lead some to dabbling in other types. I should not have used 'most' people in my original post as I agre some people are perfectly able to tolerate a few spliffs and leave it at that.
Others do up their THC intake ergo the progression from hash to oil which has a more concenrated level of THC.

I concur in regard to your thoughts on alcohol and violence.
T be flippant for a mo-Cannabis -indirectly- has been the cause of death in many a situation.
Just my observations based on personal experience of working with drug abusers a few years ago.......

MrsHawkes

I would say the majority of smack heads i know started off smoking Cannibis. It leads to harder drugs once they can't get a hit with that anymore or go to their dealer to get some and he dosen't have any but he has this ...... instead. That is one reason to legalise it to get rid of the dealing scum bags!

There was also all the people popping pills. I remember watching the buses coming back from a "rave". Whata state. I thought they were sad even then. They used to come off the bus and say to me "you don't know what your missing". The people that said that to me are now either junkies, in prison or dead.
In fact there wasn't many people who popped pills that did just leave it at that (in my home town).

Mrs H

MrsHawkes

I was going to say Cannabis causes paranoia too and it defo affects family life. I would ask the other half of a pot head and see what they say..... i bet it's nothing good.

Mrs H

Eva

You mean like Methadone Programmes? where a junkie signs up to go clean gets a script for herion substitute Methadone, gets the Methadone from his local chemist,takes it round the corner,sells it then he's on his way to buy his next hit.

Got to the stage, the junkies had to take the prescription in front of dispensing pharmacist but for a number of reasons including 'safety' this has come unstuck..Not an easy one to solve.

littlejimmy

No, I didn't say that. Something does have to change, though. Whatever system is put in place won't be perfect, but might be better. The current way of doing things with criminalisation and the War On Drugs just isn't working.

Norm_uk

Well I would concurr except for the fact that the best brains in the UK aren't running the country are they? If they were we would have eradicated the crime that comes from softer drugs and prostitution by controlling them strictly as we do with cigarettes and alcohol.

It can cause psychological dependency - just like food can in obese people. Or booze, or cigarettes or caffine (the last three are all physically addictive too but perfectly legal and kill millions each year).

Indeed, and it also helps as a painkiller for many serious conditions with none of the side effects of things like morphine.

It's technically impossible to OD on cannibis. The arguement that "many" suffer serious psychosis is weak because we only have to look at the most popular legal drug alcohol to know that "many" have no issues with it - and it is far more addictive and damaging that weed.

I think suicide rates in the Netherlands didn't jump through the roof when they legalised weed did they? And given people buy it weather legal or not sure it's better to legalise it and tax it?

I think most people are able to tolerate a few spliffs not some. Just as most people drink without becoming alcoholics or driving or beating their spouse and kids. Indeed your arguement is flawed in this respect since it is the same arguement used to ban booze...and that led to people like Al Capone and has lead to the evil drug cartels we have today. We don't ban cars because some people will crash and we should not ban weed because one or two people will want to try crack.

People do that with booze and fags - why don't we ban them? They kill millions each year directly and indirectly?

Flippant indeed...better to provide evidence that cannibis has been the indirect cause of death in "many" a situation. Are the figures anywhere near the millions who die each year from alcohol abuse directly and the tens of thousands run over by drunk drivers and beaten to death by drunken yobs?


Most weed smokers are not abusers any more than most drinkers are alcoholics. I would imagine spending all day with alcoholics anonymous would lead to a dim view of beer and wine - so I can understand why working with drug addicts would lead to a dim view of drugs. I would also imagine spending your day at a wine tasting or ale festival would lead one to think the consumption of alcohol is a refined and civillised act.

Addicts of any kind tend to be people who have many issues in their lives already. From inherant mental illness to dreadful experiences that cause them to see escape or justification in substances or other experiences.

Mentally healthy human beings appreciate many substances and rarely get addicted to them. Since most people are reasonably mentally healthy (ok, we can argue this point I know hehe) I see no reason to arbitrarily ban things because they few may abuse it. If we do that we must ban cars, table corners, electricity, planes and countless other highly dangerous things that injure and maim everyday.

I am of the opinion that people should be allowed to do anything within the limits of reasonable and adult mutual and individual consent...maybe we need a "drug license" concept or something but we need to legalise them and remove the income of terrorists and gangs who are brutal murderers and rapists.

N.

Norm_uk

Indeed the current system just doesn't work...the war on Drugs is costing billions and seems to be helping reduce the street value of drugs more than anything else as the criminals get creative.

Imagine if we could spend those billions building new hospitals and schools, or advancing medical science further? Or investing into cleaner energy? Or better addiction treatment?

N.

Eva

Bloody hell Norm, what you on?? you are all over the place like a burst settee.
Will get back to ya...........

Norm_uk

This is what happens when Norm does not have a joint for nine years...I hope now you see the wisdom in legalising it

N.

Eva

[QUOTE=Norm_uk;7601588]Well I would concurr except for the fact that the best brains in the UK aren't running the country are they? If they were we would have eradicated the crime that comes from softer drugs and prostitution by controlling them strictly as we do with cigarettes and alcohol.

I don't agree that becos a definitive solution to a problem hasn't been identified then it suggests the 'brains' aren't on it.
Your analagy would suggest therefor that it must be numpties and not the finest scientists who are researching the cure for cancer or the finest political minds trying to broker a permanent peace treaty in the Middle East.
As for controlling cigs and alcohol -two of the biggest black market commodities going!


It can cause psychological dependency - just like food can in obese people. Or booze, or cigarettes or caffine (the last three are all physically addictive too but perfectly legal and kill millions each year).

I merely state this as you seem to be proposing cannabis has only positive properties.For the record, I think Alcohol is one of the worst drugs ever.


Indeed, and it also helps as a painkiller for many serious conditions with none of the side effects of things like morphine.

Tell me then why it isn't available on a prescription only basis ?



It's technically impossible to OD on cannibis. The arguement that "many" suffer serious psychosis is weak because we only have to look at the most popular legal drug alcohol to know that "many" have no issues with it - and it is far more addictive and damaging that weed.

[COLOR="Blue"]A pathologist told me different...technically you can OD on THC.
You would need to smoke about a kilo of cannabis though and that ain't easy....





I think most people are able to tolerate a few spliffs not some.

I think you would have to accept that those looking for enough personal for a couple of joints are accomodated and not 'crimilised' if confronted re possession by the law.Warning letters and cautions are commonly used as a means of case disposal these days so this suggests that the legislation is there to tackle being concerned in the supply of cannabis


[COLOR="Blue"]The rest of your post bangs on a bit about more dangerous substances being legalised- well alcohol and tobacco are licet therefore don't really come into the discussion.Wether you think they are far worse than cannabis is of no consequence because in the legal order they are acceptable i.e not illegal-end of.
I refer to my 'flippant remark...cannabis and dealing in same has caused numerous deaths in the drugs wars on going in many areas in the UK.
I believe that perhaps part of the reason the Govt has re-classified and maintains it as illegal is a 'preventative measure'
Cannabis exists in a clandestine nefarious 'twilight zone'......very easy for people to get drawn in to (other) drug cultures

Enfin, may I draw your attention to the '2:1 against' ratio the poll is currently demonstrating......

Spugsy

not sure where your home topwn is but it sounds like junkie heaven.

I know stacks of people who used to 'pop pills' and still do, they are all very nice, hard working normal people - none in jail or dead.

Norm_uk

In the case of cannibis there was no problem to start with though...given it's recorded use goes back to around 7000BC and it was still legal when Ronald Regan was a boy perhaps we need to stop assuming it was made illegal through some reasoned and scientifc process and look at what's really going on. I suggest you look up the name Harry J. Anslinger for starters to see the racism, corporate protectionism and personal career advancement behind criminalising weed. Also check out DuPont's efforts to destroy hemp as a legal crop in the USA because it would ruin their efforts to use oil to make things like plastics, nylon type materials etc...hemp has masses of uses and is a lot friendlier to the environment than oil for sure. Look up how much better hemp paper is than the bleched wood pulp we use.

That doesn't work as we don't vote for scientists to decide where they will be working or what they will be working on. Same for assuming the finest political minds are working on a middle east peace solution (if they were so fine they would have found one already but can't because no one is talking about the root cause as the problem which is religion).

Yeah in places where they are banned or unreasonably taxed.

I think like all substances it can be abused but the facts do point to a substance that has far less dangerous and detrimental side effects that tobacco, alcohol and even caffine when excessively consumed. I think alcohol is a fine drug unless, like all drugs it's abused.

A fantastic question. It IS available in some countries, even in the US a trial was done and there are a number of people who still recieve it from the Federal Government for various conditions such as cancer and bone degeneration pain relief.

The real reason why it's not available is the anti-hedonistic Judeo-Christian culture we have combined with political inertia and the fact that most pro-legalisation advocates make poor cases in it's defense. Also add the fact that it was historically not as widespread as alcohol and hemp farmers didn't use their money to buy off politicians they was tobacco farmers did.

Ok true...and you would need to smoke it all in around 10 minutes before your body flushed it out so it's practically impossible to do unless you can refine a litre of THC and drink it all at once...

The fact is there are no cases of anyone ODing on Cannibis anywhere at anytime. We have people dying from less effective painkillers like Panadol and Brufen every day but none who consume weed. Again I feel the real reason is people might enjoy themselves smoking weed and our Judeo-Christian culture doesn't like the idea of that. Also drug companies will loose a lot of money if people can grow their own painkillers. So drug companies work closely with politicians to ensure it stays illegal.
The situation is so ludicrus that in Europe and the USA you can be perscribed a synthesied version of cannibis (Dronabinol and nabilone are two that come to mind) with nearly all the same side effects but at obviously far more cost that growing a weed in your garden...when Joe Public can legally smoke or eat cannibis to cure a headache and relax before bedtime or just to reduce stress the drug companies will loose millions in lost painkiller, sleeping pill and anti-depressant sales.

Except in some countries (like the USA, UAE, etc) possession of even small amounts will land you jail time...which can completely ruin your life...try getting a job with a criminal record.

Well cannibis is legal in Holland so I can bang on a bit can't I? It's also legal or nearly legal in a number of other nations too. The fact that that's illegal in the UK or UAE doesn't prevent me from debating the issue and pushing for it's decriminalisation does it?
At the very least we will save millions trying to enforce it's prohibition...

And this is where the government is in error. Laws will not stop criminals because by definition they will break them. Stricter laws will make smarter and more dangerous criminals. In this case the government went against the advice of it's own scientists and advisors showing a blind dogmatic view more in line with a religious dictator than a secular post-enlightment government.
Prohibition will create more problems as people will buy their product from very nasty criminals who will also try to get them hooked on crack and coke instead of the local pot shop who will try to get them to buy a cake or a pot of coffee like they do in Holland.

And that is a very good reason to remove it from this twilight zone. It has only been there for around 80 years and this has made criminals out of hundreds of thousands of decent ordinary citizens who are not and never will be involved in drug gangs or dangerous underworld lifestyles.

N.