Re: Brexit outcome
 

Re: Brexit outcome
 

I certainly don't. **** that, it's delusional to think we should - it's rose tinted spectacles and thinking of the previous century when 'Britain was Great' and all that guff.

China's got a machine that can build 700m of railway in a ****ing day and we want to go back to forging steel, fighting with unions and trying to compete with the Japanese in high quality vehicle production. Mental.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

Re: Brexit outcome
 

We're ****ed then...

Re: Brexit outcome
 

However long it takes, a population educated beyond its current mental age of twelve is vital.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

Re: Brexit outcome
 

If the alternative is working behind the till at Greggs or the local petrol station, a factory job ain't so bad. You may sneer at it, most of us would find it dull and tedious, but for an whole generation there was not only the stability of a reasonably well paid position with benefits but even some satisfaction at being part of producing something.

I find it fascinating how some countries still maintain a sophisticated manufacturing and industrial base despite the cheap labour of China. Why is Japan able to have a high performing, high quality car manufacturing sector, while British Leyland went the way of the dodo bird? Japan is a high cost, expensive and developed country with plenty of regulations so it's not cost or regulations hurting them.

Germany also has a substantial industrial and manufacturing base and one that is quite high quality. The Swiss also have a very high tech manufacturing sector. Over the years I've met a number of men who worked at "factory" jobs in Germany and Switzerland but what they did was on a level of sophistication and technical knowledge that would surprise you. It ain't for dullards. I definitely couldn't do it.

While we can debate the merits of rebuilding British industry the biggest problem I've encountered is the tendency of people to not care/be indifferent/ don't want to change the status quo. They laugh at the idea of trying to compete with the German industrial might but at the same time they offer no solutions or proposals for alternatives. They're just content to go along with the status quo despite that doing so clearly isn't helping many people. Millhouse may be right about the future of automation but there's more to industry that automation. There's still plenty of specialist work that can only be done by the human hands, stuff that needs to be done on-site, installation, and there still isn't an automatic replacement for a plumber.

A key ingredient to future Britain will be education, natch. But our mistakes of the past generations was trying to instil a one size fits all education model on the populace and going to war over grammar or independent schools. Instead of turning education into politics, we should acknowledge that different kids need to study different things, most kids aren't academic and many would be better off going into serious apprenticeship and learning skilled trades. We need to stop agonising about grammars or selective schools and need to start opening and promoting skills-based schools. And people need to stop being snobby about education. That's what the Germans do and it's worked extremely well.

I do have hopes that Brexit will be a shock enough to force people to approach the future differently. It may not pay off. But the status quo also wasn't paying off for a substantial portion of the population either.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

The fundamental disregard for engineering in post war Britain is the root of the decline of British manufacturing - which used to be world-beating. In a little more than a century the UK turned the unmatched heritage of the Stephensons and the Brunels into the notion that an engineer was somebody who repaired your video player. Bazalgette's grandson gave us...Big Brother!

Interestingly (to me anyway), as a graduate in the 1980s, engineering was the only sector where starting salaries were significantly higher in Ireland than in Britain, mainly due to the fact that the employers were mostly multinationals recently invested in Ireland (which had little indigenous manufacturing industry thanks to policies under British rule which had been entirely focused on benefiting the rentier landlords). These companies placed much greater value on their engineering resources. Similarly, in Ireland as in much of continental Europe and North America, entry requirements for university engineering courses are much higher than for science or other other technical degree fields, exactly the reverse of what was the case in the UK. I recall one sneering comment from a former (British) manager of mine early in my career that the decline of British industry was largely due to the ineptitude of factories run by Cambridge history graduates. I blame CP Snow and that whole snobby two cultures thing in the '50s.

Ironically, the UK had a real opportunity to build on the much-improved industrial base that has been re-established over the past 30 years, mainly from inward multinational investment particularly in aerospace and automotive, as part of the enormous extended European supply chains. That's looking a much shakier prospect now. But, as Boris says, f**k business. I'm sure the UK can make up for that European business by selling lots of dodgy car parts and aircraft components to, um, ...Vanuatu, Honduras?

Re: Brexit outcome
 

I think the Germans and Japanese are culturally different to us and capable of delivering manufacturing services properly.

We're far too lazy, half arsed and 'that'll do' to actually deliver quality.

Spain would be a great manufacturing nation if they weren't Spanish.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

Re: Brexit outcome
 

Miss Ann, your hatred of the English permeates into every single post, I'm sure if a poster was hugely anti-gay and pushed their agenda in each and every post you'd be the first to jump on it.

Run your life with less hatred, you'll be happier.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

Spot on. In high end manufacturing (which is where we would need to position ourselves due to price pressures) - "good enough", is never good enough.

I read engineering and out of my cohort, I would guess only around 5% of the people when on to do some form of engineering. The rest went into high end software development, consulting, sales and investment banking. I know of only one who ended up in operations decent manufacturer. The good ones also left the UK. I just can't see UK graduates being able to compete in the engineering/manufacturing sector on a mass scale - what we do its fantastic, but it's niche and not well paid.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

I do not hate the English though perhaps you, in your Trumpian Brexit bubble, are given to perceive anything less than fawning adulation as hatred. My post started with recognition of the the former glories of British (mostly English) engineering which was unsurpassed for about 150 years up until the early 20th century and (I thought an obvious) sense of regret that Britain allowed this strength to dwindle away. Most of the rest was simple facts and some opinion. My opinion about why this happened may be contended for sure - and it is a bit one-dimensional and simplistic - but the fact that it did happen is clear.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

The brexit negotiations seem to be arriving at where I suspected they would. It's a game of chicken, a motorbike verses an articulated truck. The only way the motorbike can win is to either (a) convince the juggernaut driver that he's mad or stupid enough not to recognize he'll be obliterated and might only take a headlight with him or (b) to convince the juggernaut driver he's angry enough not to care, and would happily commit suicide just to do some superficial damage to the nasty European bogeyman's truck.

It's very hard to appear this stupid, insane or angry, but I have to hand it to Mogg, Davis, Fox and co. They're giving it a really good stab. I am impressed.

Re: Brexit outcome
 

:sarcasm:...tisk-tisk captainflack - you're not Criticising your Betters are you? These gentlemen have been brought up by Nanny, then School-House & finally at Uni to inherit their natural born-Entitlement to run the UK. Let there be no questioning of their Rights....;)