Ethos83

Are you a pinko?

Norm_uk

You don't know much about history do you...or Democracy?

Firstly there were strong ties between the Soviets and Nazis for a decade before the war. Half their propaganda even looks the same = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rts--lWSgvw

The Nazi's really only differed in their outlook in that they accepted state Christianity of a sort and persecuted the Jews whereas the Soviets were mostly atheistic (replacing Christianity with state worship effectively) and persecuted capitalists. They only fell out when they realised they wanted control of the same land.

Both were brutal dictatorships and murdered millions, including their own people. The Soviets take the prize for the biggest murderers though, under Stalin over 20million died...after the bloody war ended!

Democracy only means people elect their leaders. It doesn't state which people. The first Democracies of ancient Greece only allowed free male landowners of a certain age to vote...in this regard some communist states are actually more democractic than the fathers of Democracy. Even post-revolutionary America restricted the franchise to white free male landowners for over 100 years...is our current system where surviving to be 18 is enough to run for office or vote somehow more Democratic or better or more moral?

But let's not forget anyone who has views that portray certain religious ideologies in a bad light or who has anything to say about socialism is basically a Nazi of the most right wing because...well, just because!

That must explain my libertarian, pro-jewish, non-pacifist, keep religion and state seperate stance?

N.

PS: Oh, I'm centre left according the political compass by the way...

Norm_uk

Most of my views are not right wing but I agree, viewing things from the right is not any worse or wrong than from the left in most cases.

Different views when reasoned and open to scrutiny are a good thing. We live in a culture now that just dismisses certain views with examination...it's very immature and sometimes dangerous.

N.

Millhouse

quite the opposite.

littlejimmy

I know enough to know that that is specious nonsense mixed with blatant cherry picking, mostly. You're sounding more hysterical and paranoid by the day, like those Tea Party fools over the pond. It's a shame, because I used to enjoy debating with you. Now when people challenge your bizarre assertions you just complain that you're being oppressed, you poor Middle Class White Male, you. I think I'll just ignore you like most other people on here do. Oh God, it's Norm again, standing on the corner, wearing his "END IS NIGH" board and shouting at the shadows, blaming all the world's ills on lefties and muslims...

captainflack

There were even stronger ties between the US, UK and the Soviets for 4-5 years during the war.

So Britain and America must be socialists too then?

Ethos83

I want some popcorn.

And a beer too. But not too much. Half pint is fine.

Norm_uk

We're all entitled to our opinions and I would hate to appear thin skinned but when someone accuses me of being something I'm not I feel obliged to edify…

Aside from your obvious misunderstanding (based more on opposition of opinion rather than ignorance I suspect) of much of what I post, and your distinct lack of actually responding to any particular point when I counter your responses indicates you are more concerned with digging at me than really debating what I might say in various forum topics (saying I blame all the world's ills on lefties and muslims because I have posted opinions against both groups in these forums is rather silly don't you think? I would hardly be in the UAE if that was my core political outlook on life)

I can’t say I’m sorry I can no longer keep you entertained in debate - you see I debate because I enjoy being challenged and edified. I love to test my facts and happily admit if I am wrong...look over my posts and you will see I have apologised and retracted on several occasions and will do so again immediately if I state something which is clearly proven wrong.

Now to correct: you are happy to not only lump me with Tea Party idiots (whom I am generally against because they are stupid even if they have some points which are valid) but when I'm called a poor (I'm not poor) middle class (most of my immediate family are proudly working class although I do have upper class snobs on my mum’s side we don’t talk too much as the estate is a bit intimidating) and white (my Dad is only about an 1/8 white and I have a year round tan - White culturally but not racially as most white people don't accept people as white unless both sides of the recent family burn easily on the beach…something about the one drop rule I think…) without knowing any such thing of my personal life does say a lot about you.

Still, I know you probably won’t reply, unless it's with with more accusations of ranting and raving etc because it’s easier and doesn’t require as much thinking and typing does it? You might even get a few laughs out of it too, at my expense, which is a plus point in the frivolous sea that is these forums.

Pax.

Norm_uk

Strong ties simply because we were already at war with Hitler when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union…not because of any shared ideology or common values.

The Socialism to which I refer is the undying belief that all people must be equal – by any means necessary. The Nazi’s promoted an equal state but only the right kind of Aryan. The Soviets promoted an equal state but only for the right kind of Communist. That’s probably very simplistic but it conveys the generality of my point.

Stalin was genuinely shocked when Nazi troops attacked in 22nd June 1941 because he felt himself and Hitler were close allies with similar goals and views (which was true except Hitler’s hatred of the Jews demanded he go into Russia to kill them)

N.

littlejimmy

You're taking the wrong meaning of the word poor.

I'm sorry you take it personally. I know you have an encyclopeadic knowledge of history, I just think it's sometimes a bit biased. (Just an opinion, of course) I also find it surprising that you use this particular (frivoulous, as you say) board to make your views known rather than, say, the Take It Outside board. In addition, I don't like the way the poltiical debate has become so entrenched, with finger-pointing and labelling galore on both sides. This isn't just aimed at you, I hasten to add.

As for addressing your points, I will if I get time later...yeah, poor excuse. I have a job now, you know! I'll just say that I acknowledge that Stalin and Hitler had a great deal in common, but to blithely state that Hitler was left wing/socialist is simplistic and wrong. I'd love to see what he would make of the Welfare State and Affirmitive Action, etc...

Norm_uk

There's nothing wrong with being poor I suppose...poverty is often as much a mindset as a actual material position.

I think everyone is biased to one degree or another...myself included. I like Rock more than Hip-Hop, I prefer German beers to Dutch etc. But I am not prejudiced - for that is to judge before having facts at hand. I am, to put it bluntly judging since I usually only comment on things I know about...and I am open to correction this. What I object to is people who clearly do not have facts at hand but happily pass judgement (prejudice). No one is perfect but we'll never get anywhere if we don't at least pretend to have standards

I wasn't aware the only serious debate was in the Take It Outside board...especially since the Sand Pit by definition is anything offtopic anyway.

Hitler practically invented affirmative along with Stalin? He took Jewish and political opponents jobs away from them and gave them to Nazi party members regardless of ability. Affirmative action is the same I think - giving jobs and titles to people who haven't earnt it. I believe we should all have an equal oppurtinity to try and succeed and nothing more...if you don't make the grade then that's tough luck.

N.

littlejimmy

Come on... affirmative action is like political correctness, and often even more cack-handed, and it is designed to redress perceived historical racial and gender-based inequalities, trying to create a level-playing field for everyone, and not just a select section/race/gender, etc. Hitler's approach wasn't anything to do with equality.

Norm_uk

They are two sides of the same coin.

Affirmative action isn't about equality either...more like subdued revenge on people for something their great grandfather might have did.

True equality would simply open the doors to anyone who can do the job, protect people from being judged by their skin colour or ethnic origin or gender and leave it at that.

N.

littlejimmy

I didn't say it was perfect, I know it's flawed and clumsy. Positive discrimination is still discrimination, but I still believe the intent behind it is quite different to a belief in racial superiority, and I haven't seen any WASP men being shipped to concentration camps to make way for black women....yet.

In an ideal world, like you say, everyone would have a fair crack, and until we have that, people will (rightly or wrongly) want to try and tip the scales.

Norm_uk

I've seen a few not get jobs they are qualified for though because the prospective employer has been told to hire women and/or other ethnic groups to make the work place more "Diverse" whatever that means. But yes, no concentration camps yet - quiet plodding racism and sexism.

We still have a long way to go...I'm just concerned people will give up and accept crap like this before we get there.

N.