65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I can't recall another crane accident with a higher death toll.

Crane Collapse in Mecca Leaves More Than 60 Dead - ABC News

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Nearly double that, apparently. Crane was Bin Laden's, not been a good few weeks for them. Staggering lack of sympathy being displayed in certain quarters in the UK.

As an aside, the Grand Mosque is being enlarged so that it can accommodate 2.2 million people at once. 2.2 million? Words fail me.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I just don’t know why when I first heard this news, among the first things that came to mind was this forum!!

For you information, there are far more people who want to go to Hajj every year than the 2.2 millions, but they had to be turned down because the place is just not enough. As for the lack of sympathy in certain corners of the UK, well that is quite normal as there exist similar kinds of people in some corners of the Muslim world who harbor similar satisfaction when they see natural disasters hitting the west, particularly the US. Bottom line is, sick people exist in every society,

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

If there ever was evidence that there ain't no big man sitting on a pink cloud in the sky, this is it.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Bloody hell, a balanced and cogent reply. :thumbup:

You feeling ok?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

As a non-Muslim I have never been at the Grand Mosque but have seen film of Friday Prayers. An amazing site. Numbers going on pilgrimage have been increasing since the very low figures of the 1940s.

Surely the Islamic Revival has been one of the most noticeable features of World History in the last 100 years.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

its an annual capacity BB.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I was listening to the radio here in the US ; a Muslim chap was saying how the authorities should bring down the cranes till the masses of pilgrims have left. He also mentioned the lack of safety and treatment of labourers possibly being a factor in the disaster.

I know the Saudi authorites have been bulldozing and destroying sites inhabited by the family/companions of Muhammed (as per Wahabhi belief on shirk) to make room for the expansion / hotels etc..The authorities don't seem to give a fig about safety or preserving ancient sites, it's all about development and 'progress'.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I think a challenge to that statement could be made after watching the videos. The boom came back between the luffers. That must have been godly intervention to miss them.

Never seen a crawler fall over like that

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I'm not so sure, strange that this 'accident' happened on 9-11...

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

The most basic principle in the Islamic creed is the principle of the ones of the creator. that is to say in the faith of Islam, your worship, your prayers, your source of help is only and soley to this entity. This may sound like a simple rule to follow but unfortunately humans have an incredible tendency to slowly drift away from this rule due mainly to the strong call from that tangible part of their existence. There is a strong urge within the human beings to adhere to anything tangible in nature and in the absence of the mind a person can easily end up worshiping stones, graves, and even other fellow humans, an act called Shirik in Islam.
Though I do differ quite considerably with my brothers the Saudis on quit a number of issues, I, however, strongly support them on their firm stand on this issue of Shitk, but still, they actually have gone a bit far in implementing those rules

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I am actually not that surprised. For quite some time, there has been a talk about some kind of mind energy that can direct the wish of a person into changing the cause of events. The same kind of energy that link the minds of the twins, for example. I remember reading about an American professor who did a study about this subject in the context of sport matches. He was trying to find out if the results of a football match, for example, can indeed be affected if lots of supporters were cheering a particular team from the comfort of their own homes. The study was still not conclusive.
If such energy does exist then yesterday’s event can be easily explained

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Shit-K ?

I think you mean SHIRK - associating others with the One Who Knows All..

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Didn't take too long before the nuttiness resumed.

Pakistani labourers dying in the holy land. For many of them this would have been the highest accolade. Death is only sad if you want it to be.

As my PRO always reminds me. This life doesn't matter. For the good Muslim it is the next one that is important.

This is sadly why the labourers are treated like shit. No value of life by their Arab masters.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

you are obviously a confused person. Not that I am surprised!!

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

...

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

both spellings are right mate! you know something, if you'd learned the Arabic language when you were in Saudi you could have now landed yourself a big job in the British embassy, in the espionage department ;)

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

redshark
For you I recommend the book "How To Win Friends and Influence People"

I suspect my Arabic is better than yours.

redshark wrote

"firm stand on this issue of Shitk"

I suspect this is a typo and NOT an alternative transcription.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I was only joking Scot47 ;)

I probably will read this book, and I hope it will help. Last time I was recommend a book it was “how to become a millionaire” I read it but I am still a poor bugger :p

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Redshark

I do not now, and never will, work for the imperialists and their running dogs !

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

So the black stone at the heart of Islam in the Kaaba doesn't count? The same black stone that was worshipped as one of the idols of the Meccan gods by the Nabateans in Mecca long before Islam. You picked a spectacularly bad example there eh?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Classic wahabi thinking yet again : "What I think is right and what everyone else thinks is wrong and I will presume to know what is in your heart and mind and instead of asking you about where you are coming from like an intelligent sane person, I will make an assumption about you and then condemn you for it and not just stop with the condemnation but if given a chance I will also try and punish you based on that assumption"

Shirk is a very very strong word and should not be thrown about but what do I know about religion eh?

Based on your statement, anyone visiting the Prophet's grave in Medina is doing Shirk? What right have you or any wahabi nutter to make an assumption about what is inside a person's heart and mind when he goes to visit the Prophet's grave? Maybe he is there just to pay his respects, as 99.99% of all who do visit are doing exactly that : paying their respects at the grave of a man who was pivotal in giving you the same religion which you are carrying as a chip on your shoulder now!

And it is written again and again in the Book to 'go and visit the old places where people before you lived as for those with knowledge there are many signs there' this is not verbatim ofcourse but I do know for a fact that it has been mentioned atleast more than 3 times

And as for the idiots who do go to graves for worshiping them or asking for anything based on that location, just let those idiots be, who am I to judge anyone? for that matter, who are the Saudis or you to judge them? No one made you guys the protectors of this religion. Please live your own life and look to your own grave.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I like that, I think you should be an Arab leader, you would serve their interests better than the current Arab puppets ;)

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I don’t know from where you got that idea of Muslims worshiping Kaaba!! But let me clarify your confusion with some historical information.

Kaaba was first built by Abraham and his son Ishmael to house the black stone (an asteroid rock) in order to make a temple for worshiping God the creator, and they gave it the name 'the house of God' . Thousands of years down the line, and you get people of Arabia shifting that paradigm (remember the urge for tangibility) from worshiping the creator into worshiping that house and its contents instead. The prophet of Islam was later on sent to reinstall the original paradigm and bring the people back to the worship of the creator with clear instructions that this stone does not do harm or good to anybody, it is only the creator who does.

Past forward to our current time and you'd see some ignorant Muslims who have lost those understandings, behaving much like the old pagans of Arabia did (probably that’s what you are referring to). For that reason the Saudi authority has placed policemen all around the Kaaba to watch over those pagan idiots and stop them from doing any act of Shirk.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

But... Muslim still circumnavigate the Black stone and Muslims around the world pray facing the Black stone. So how is that not idolatary. If it was any other culture, Muslims would see it as idolatary, because you are physically focusing on an earthly object when praying.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I hate the Saudis....they are the scum of the earth....mofo's have totally given Islam a bad rep.

just figured I'd say my 2 dirhams worth:p

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

It was managing to do it itself pretty well elsewhere without them.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I think you are mixing up things. Idolatry act happens when you erect a statue in a shape of some figure believing that this is how God actually looks like and you start offering your worship to IT.

Kaaba to the Muslims is simply a geographical focal centre where they face to in their prayers, much like the north pole to a campus needle. It also is a place where Muslim gather for the Haj ritual and the reason it is considered holy is because it was a first temple built by Abraham. Muslims also are taught that they are closest to the creator when they are in this area (is it to do with the golden ratio location, I wonder!!). There is nothing more to Kaaba than those symbolic meanings. Now if you ask what is the need for all this symbolism, the answer would be, it has to do with the construction of the human phycology. It appears that symbols and icons are vital tools for disciplining human concentrations and nations, otherwise, have you ever wondered why do every single nation in the world has a piece of a colourful rag which they refer to as a flag, and to which they sing anthems and take salutes and get angry if it is burned or physically abused? Is the piece of rag itself that is important or is it the meaning that it represents?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

How is that cognitive dissonance working out for you? By your very words it is worshipping an idol "first temple built".

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I think he's bloviating :sneaky:

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

That's his usual MO with only a single exception which was his first post in this thread. Sadly it went downhill rapidly after that, same same like always.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Death on pilgrimage guarantees a ticket to Paradise.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...o-Britons-dead

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Mikewot summed it up.
You say it isn't idolatry then in the same breath you say it is holy and they are closes to the creator in that specific area.

I am not arguing on whether symbolism is right or wrong, I am just saying that more than any other religion Islam denigrates those religions/cultures that practice idolatry and yet Islam does the very same thing on a grand scale.

It's a case of do-as-i-say-and-not-as-I-do . Devout Muslims are well known for smashing aspects of other cultures for perceived (real or imagined) idolatry.

If a culture/religion preaches to everyone quite forcefully against a practice/belief (idolatry in this case) then be prepared to face incoming stones in your glass house.

On a related note: The Saudis and their ancient ancestors were quite shrewd to co-opt the Pagan Black stone into their Muhammadenism ; quite a lucrative money making scheme , not to mention Muslims all over the world are brainwashed to defend the Kaaba , which automatically means defending the Saudi Arabs and their territory.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Religious people (genuinely devout) and the fake religious leaders will spin a negative story to be a positive to defend their belief system / political system.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

So... two things:

1) My post about dying in Mecca being no greater honour (and death not being sad) was correct even if I was delusional.
2) SBG are now banned from all projects in the country.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Apparently the jib on that type of crane should be lowered when not in use, especially if high winds are expected.

So SBG are definitely in the firing line on this one.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

You don’t seem to understand what idolatry means in the first place to argue with me, otherwise you wouldn’t have confused the meaning of idolatory with the idea that someone can be spiritually closer to the creator if he is in a particular place on earth.
You deliberately cherry pick from my post to make your point. I’ve already in the first paragraph of my post explained to you what is the Islamic definition of idolatry. It is the act of representing God in a physical shape or object and fearing that object and directing the worship to it, believing that it is God or incarnation of God.

Your other problem with me is your Christian background ( however hypocritically you are trying to conceal; By the way, it is the evangelists who use the word Muhammadenism) because your understanding of what is Holy is not necessarily my understanding. In Islam a holy place is a blessed place, in the sense that the rewards for the act of worships in that spot are multiplied.

For your information, your state of confusion is well identified in Quran, it is called “the blinder of the hearts, not the eyes”

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Your problem is that you are writing in English without understanding the words (a rarity for you). We are an English speaking site using English language and meanings, not some made up old bollocks.
Definition of idol:
Oxford Dictionary: A person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered
Cambridge Dictionary: a ​picture or ​object that ​people ​pray to as ​part of ​their ​religion

And on and on.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I suspect that the daesh might have other ideas about what to do with this idol and they would mainly involve hammers and TNT.