Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

You need to read up a bit on the various invasions of India by Muslims

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I see no difference between the brutalities and genocides carried out by so called Christian nations to those carried out by those who follow Islam.
Does anyone ??

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I don't think anyone has said anything of the sort?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

well the Ottoman Genocide of 1.5 million Armenian Christians is a start

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

You originally said
"When did Islam murder an estimated 20 million plus as so called Christian Europe did in the last century."

then I asked you to educate yourself on the Muslim invasions of india
and now you see no difference LOL

You have a reputation for never answering the points raised and the above is a really good example of just why you have that reputation IMO

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Oooowwww a popcorn thread, not had one of these in a while :-) Hoping it turns into one where I will need a big mac and fries also ;-)

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

May I also suggest that when you read, try to read from both sides of the story, because the claim you are making is akin to someone in a hundred years from now looking back at the events of the twentieth century and drawing a conclusion that the civilized west had committed an act of genocide against the people of Japan.

you see, when it comes to investigate political events and conflicts that had happened in the past history it becomes rather difficult to differentiate between actual facts and myths because of the claims and the counter claims both sides of story make. That is why in such cases the best way to discover the truth is try to look at the facts on the ground. Therefore when I debate the subject of the spread of Islam in India I normally ask my opponent two questions which seem to be sufficient to refute his claims. My first question is, how did the people of Afghanistan convert to Islam? No superpower in the past or present managed to subdue those people, let alone get them to change their religion. The second question is, every year millions of people of the subcontinent commemorate the arrival of Islam to their shore with big fireworks and celebrations. Is this the act of someone suffered genocide? Have you ever heard of a red Indian or an aborigine celebrate the arrival of the Europeans to their shore???

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Since when did the Indians try to conquer Arab or Muslim lands , because to draw a comparison to Japan, the pre-Islamic Indians would have had to attack and attempt to conquer Islamic lands without provocation.

Indians celebrate Islam because Indian has 1 of the largest if not the largest population if Muslims in the world, so obviously a lot of Indians are going to celebrate Islam. A lot of Black Africans were enslaved and converted to Islam but Black African Muslims still celebrate Islam. Many Levantines , North Africans and Northern Mesopotamians became Muslims because they were conquered and yet they celebrate Islam. I wonder if it has anything to do with the brainwashing power of religion and that fact that after these people got conquered and a new identity was imposed on them and it is hard for people to give up their indentity. Stockholm Syndrome is another reason.

As for Afghanistan: it is erroneously believed no one conquered the area, but infact the Mongols did rule that region and their descendants , known as Hazara , still live there.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Some at least were converted by the sword.

In Kafiristan, a word for a region of Eastern Afghanistan, around present day Nuristan, the local population was converted to Islam by the sword, by Abdur Rahman Khan. Today the Western part of what was known as Kafiristan lies in Pakistan, and here and only here are to be found Kafirs that still follow and practice their traditional religion.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

The story of Josiah Harlan's etching out of a kingdom in Afghanistan is fascinating. Assumed to be a basis for Kipling's "The Man Who Would be King"

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

It is very common for African Americans and Native Americans to celebrate the Fourth of July. The anniversary of the establishment of European hegemony that was not going to go away.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Enough with all of the facts already! Redshark does not deal in facts, only suppositions, fairy stories, superstition and magic.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Much like religion, eh?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I just stumbled over an old writing which encapsulates all the religious mumbo jumbo and my position. Where they talk about heaven (the virgins) life after death blah blah blah.

Show me the Sausages!
A philosopher designs a marvellous sausage machine. A scientist comes
to marvel at this wonderful creation, and raises an eyebrow.
The philosopher says, "Ah, behold the wonderful cogs and sprockets and
temperature-controlled mixing chambers in my wonderful machine -
surely you can see how it must produce the most fantastic sausages!"
The scientist says "Yes, that is all very interesting. Show me the sausages."
The philosopher says "How dare you, a mere scientist, question my
wonderful philosophical reasoning?"
Scientist: "I'm not questioning your reasoning - I want to know if
your machine really produces sausages."
Philosopher: "Can you point to any flaw in my argument that it
produces sausages?"
Sci: "I don't know - I just want to know if it produces sausages. Here
is some meat. Why don't you feed it through and see if you get any
sausages?"
Phil: "And sully my wonderful machine with mere offal?"
Sci: "You said it was a sausage machine. I want to see the sausages."
Phil: "Are you questioning my ingredients?"
Sci: "I'm just questioning whether it produces sausages or not. Show
me the sausages."
Phil: "Ah, so you cannot attack my premises and you cannot attack my
argument. Therefore I'm right and you lose."
Sci: "Don't be such a melodramatic prancing arse. Show me the sausages."
Phil: "The sausages inevitably flow from the argument. You see my fine
machine. You can even inspect the meat & onions. The sausages
necessarily flow."
Sci: "Show me the sausages or I'm off to Tesco."
Phil: "You are a mere scientist with no understanding of philosophical matters."
Sci: "Bye."

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Absolutely, religions as well as body medicines have various claimants and counterclaimants

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

And only a few moments ago you accused me of entertaining fairy stories, O’ the bloody irony.
Anyhow, this story is against you, you are the philosopher who are claiming that you can drop cans of paints onto the ground and by the order of chaos a precious picture of Monaliza can be formed, and when someone asked you show me how is that, you start accusing us of being brainwashed. So I say to you bye, I’d rather go and do the Friday prayers now!!

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

My viewpoint is that there is no difference between the abilities and the records of followers of christianity or islam when it comes to apalling acts against their fellow man.
Be they against others of a different religion or even co religionists , or followers of a
different stream of the same religion.
You refer to the muslim invasions of India, it was common practice from ancient times long before the rise of Islam if a city resisted to put the inhabitants to the sword. To encourage the next city or state not to resist.
The moghuls were descendants of Gehngis khan who was not a muslim , that was how he conquered a large chunk of what was then the known civilised world.
The christan crusaders did not even give muslims and jews the chance to convert.
Look up the 30 years war in Germany or the genocide carried out by catholic croats against orthodox serbs in ww2.
Religion is the catalyst or excuse that brings out the very worst in mankind.It does not matter which religion it is .

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Mughals had a tiny elite that was of partial Turko-Mongol descent but by and large they were not descendants of Genghis Khan; their administration was carried out by Persians. You don't see Turkic being a major language in Pakistan or Northern India.

The Crusades were in response to Muslim attacks on Christians, something everyone seems to conveniently forget.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

How do you arrive at your conclusion? The point I was making was that you talk the talk, but you (religious people) never, ever, walk the walk. You claim x, y and z, and have many fancy words to describe. But there is zero, zilch, nada proof. Nothing, not one shred of evidence that all your fancy words are factually true.
It is time you sh1t or got off the pot.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Do look up your bistory.
Jerusalem was a multi religious city when sacked by the crusaders. They killed , muslims, jews, orthodox christians anyone who got in the way.
Religion was the excuse for levels of brutality then ,in times before that and since.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You do realise what you've done there, don't you? If not, ask an adult to read it for you and explain. How DO you manage to tie your shoelaces in the morning?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I didn't say the Crusaders didn't kill peoples of varied faiths, I said the Crusades was a response to Muslim attacks.

Why are Muslim apologists and critics of the Crusades deliberately ignoring that Muslims wars against Christians preceded the Crusades. Ofcourse some of the Crusaders used religion as an excuse for their own means but the narratice being pushed for decades is that Muslim adversaries of the Crusaders are somehow the good guys and the Crusaders the bad guys.

As for knowing History: you should know the language of the Mughal court was Persian and not a Turkic language.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

We will never know.

The books and records have all been doctored, destroyed or written to present whatever version of the the truth was needed to push the writers' agenda. Only in death will we know if there is or isn't a maker. And at that point it does't ****ing matter.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

The Associated Press is reporting that this was the deadliest Hajj trajedy ever ; the Saudi authorities are grossly under reporting the number of deaths.

The dead soo far amounts to 1,470 and hundreds are still missing.

AP Exclusive: Saudi crush was deadliest hajj tragedy ever

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Your ignorance knows no bounds. 6.4 million people congregated this year in Munich, a similar number to previous years. 1 man died falling out of a tree a few years back, and 13 were killed in a terrorist attack (ring any bells?). Many were drunk, but still managed not to stampede like morons. Go figure.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Ignorance is a very strong word from someone who distorts the facts.
Octoberfest takes place over 2 weeks across the city of Munich, not in one small place with limited access.Visitors fly, bus, drive, rail in or a day for two and then out again.Been there, done it.
There are no ceremonies, pilgrimages etc.
Rapes, fights, etc etc unfortunatley do happen. 2 rapes reported this year .
Ignorance is often a reflection of prejudice.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

The Hajj lasts 5 days. 2 million people in purpose-built facilities, not in a modern, fully-functioning international city that still functions during the pilgrimage.In Munich every day's a ceremony and pilgrimage, and there's a good deal of worshipping that goes on, too (no god can claim a monopoly on worship).Saudi has spent $100 billion on infrastructure at Mecca--that's a ****ing big village by anyone's standards.Yes, there's a bit of civil disorder (2 rapes in 2 weeks--probably fewer than happened in Riyadh during the same period): not 1,000's killed.Distortion of facts is often a reflection of an unwillingness to confront them.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Have you been to the Octoberfest, its hardly a deeply religious pilgramage but a vast commercial operation based on getting drunk and having a good time.
There is no comparidon or justifiable reason to compare the two events.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

I never said it was a religious pilgrimage. To many, the Hajj is a vast (but less vast than Oktoberfest) operation based on controlling people. There are direct parallels between the two events in terms of logistics, and interesting comparisons to be drawn from the problems which occur at each event. However, I admit that logic isn't everything. As I'm sure Pink Minnow would cite if he warmed his brain cells up a bit: 10% of road accidents are caused by people being drunk; therefore 90% are caused by people being sober; therefore there would be fewer accidents if everyone drove while drunk. :beer:

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Considering the profits that KSA makes from the Hajj each year (various sources put it at a over USD 7 billion) that is also a "vast commercial operation". Perfectly good reason to compare.

Perhaps if there was less focus on profits and more on the prophet there might be fewer deaths there each year?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Where's the groan/laugh smiley? But even if it was solely about the prophet, it would still be about profiting in the afterlife as a result of kowtowing in this life. I'm sure if we all went around worshipping beer then society in general would be better. I've never heard of India Pale Ale-ists getting all prissy if Newkie Brownists don't come over to their way of thinking, or flat-and-room-temperature-ians insisting that their ilk can't have a packet of pork scratchings with a pint on Fridays and being in violent disagreement with lagerites who wouldn't touch a bowl of scampi on Sundays. On the other hand, one massive toga party lasting five days has some redeeming features, but not in the dessert (and the rock-throwing bit might get out of hand). Walking round the same building several times isn't exactly unheard of late on a Friday night, either. I seriously can't take seriously anyone who takes religion seriously. Seriously. Y'all seriously need to get a life, not wish for one after you're dead. (None of the above aimed at you, Meow.) Edit: Why aren't my paragraphs separating?

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

:rofl::rofl:
you know I read that all in an american accent for some reason and it was brilliant! :)

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

This is my religion.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Although I didn’t understand much of what you drivel about (probably because it is some kind of a pub language) but I think what you are trying to say is right- faith is just simply not suitable for you, you better stick to your bottle- doom and gloom, consume, and be consumed

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Nearly right, Minnow--except that many death cults (even big ones) are the doom and gloom vehicles. You carry on desperately clinging to your blind and misguided hope of a happy after-life, I'll continue with living my life doing the best I can for those around me. Oh, and ps: If you actually got out a bit more and interacted with intelligent, reliable, responsible, caring, sincere people with a link to and an understanding of how British establishments, culture and freedoms have been formed and the role they play in society, it'd make you a more rounded person.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Speaking of accent, I use to know in my locality a group of british Pakistanis who took conformity with the culture of the locals to the extreme, like being so keen on speaking their accent, pretending in their behaviours to be like one of them, etc. thinking that by doing so they would look cool and charming and therefore acceptable. But little did they know that the locals actually have more respect to the other Pakistanis who act like themselves and are proud of their identity. One day I was discussing with a pakistani friend in my local mosque about those guys and he went, 'yeh we know those guys, they are just a joke, and we have a nickname for them', something related to some crop.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Hardly news. In my experience Brit-Paks are universally hated by both Paks and Brits. The general thinking on both sides is this: You can be British, or Pak, but you cannot be both. :lol:

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

The Brit-Paks I worked with in Saudi were horrified to hear that the Saudis considered them to be "Hindis". (ie "Indians")

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

Aren't you deliberately deluding yourself? The thought of an afterlife is comforting so you believe in it . It's like someone who imagines they are a famous movie star or powerfull leader or whatever, to make themselves feel better.

Re: 65 dead in Mecca crane collapse. Death toll may rise.
 

So what you are really saying is that he should support you and Islam and be against the other British posters here and failure to do so makes him a sellout or race traitor .

If you aren't actually descended from Khaleeji tribes but from pre Islamic Mesopotamian peoples, then aren't you a sellout for supporting Salafism?