formula

Now we have been put in the same debt and haven't had to finanace a world war to get there

Yes. People breeding was a priority after the war too, hence why child benefit (called family allowance?) came in, although it was not paid for the eldest child. Then about 1979? families got child benefit for the eldest too.

Then in the last decade, in a time when we could do with not encouraging people to breed, we have had a whole host of new, extra generous, welfare payments for families that are below a certain income. No real requirement for them to put in many hours of work either, to claim these benefits. In fact, the more they worked for their families, the less they get in tax credits.

NHS, now the 3rd biggest employer in the world. Free to anyone who is in the country even if they have never paid in to it. Can we keep going with being this generous?

Brown has a history degree. What a shame for the country that he didn't have a maths degree. Even A level maths would have done.

That just might be the one good thing to come out of all this. A whole generation has become dependant on welfare in the last decade. IMO, the rot started in the state worker sections, with many of those workers knowing they could be kept for life it they invented a bad back or said they were too stressed to work. The UKs finances are almost in as bad a way as Greece and they are making massive public spending cuts to survive.

Wub

Thing is...its not just about cutting spending. Even with the massive post war debts incurred in the 40's and early 50's, investment (money) had to be injected into the economy to eventually produce the desired return i.e. growth.

The post war situation was horrific compared with today.

Its sixty odd years, (roughly), since the last earth shattering financial crisis, we're a different society now.

Our expectations have risen in line with our living standards.

Its just the way it is.

So, do you honestly think any government is going to radically reduce basic benefits and welfare provision for its people? Or create a media-frenzy when it announces hospital or school closures? Always mindful of public opinion, the politicians will test the waters....but they're not going to jump into that particular shark infested swamp.

It will do what British governments have always done when faced with similar problems: it will tax.

BristolUK

Who said anything about data protection? I was speaking of the situation where someone who is not a part of your application has to reveal their financial circumstances because it could affect Income Support or Housing Benefit. That's a loss of privacy for someone not part of an application and it has repercussions that are not part of a tax credit application.

Those are pretty major requirements I listed as not applying to tax credit applications - TEN and I could have come up with more - and the best you can do is target just one....and get that wrong?

formula

From what I have read their are many other welfare payments that don't result in a loss of privacy from someone not part of the application ie, some of the disabilty payments and contribution based JSA.

Loss of privacy for someone not part of the application can happen on a tax credit claim ie someone claiming to be single but has a partner that they shops with, cooks and eats with or they stay over the odd night.

Well of course you are going to know all about welfare payments and the requirements and of course I won't. You claim welfare and I don't. And you find that funny?

formula

Not basic benefits, these will be needed. As I said before, there are already calls to scrape tax credits. They cost a lot, are more open to fraud and are relatively new (came in 2002?)

During the was aftermath of the war, the country wasn't burdened by massive welfare payouts.

Increases in tax won't even cover the debts and interest we already have. Plus head offices of banks like HSBC are already moving abroad. Who will plug the lost tax the UK received from big banks if more leave this sinking ship? What about the staff that go with these banks, who will plug the losses in their lost taxes? What about the spinoff from all the little business people that relied on those workers to shop with them? What about the threats of Gordon to tax traders (the ones we need to bring money into the country) higher? I didn't see any other countries joining in that clever little idea, apart form France and they don't rely on the money from banking like the UK does.Those traders will just leave and earn money for another country. It really is that easy for them as they are in jobs that get head hunted. We will all have to pay higher interest to cover the banks and traders lost tax renenue too as well as the debts and interest we already have. But taxes won't raise enough to cover all this and what about future money we need to borrow to keep the country going?


The only other place we can get money from is by borrowing it, but the UK is a high risk. Nobody wants to lend to the UK at the rate they lend to say, France. Therefore we will have to borrow more and pay even higher interest. So how do we pay these new debts back? Where do you think the money will come from to pay for those debts if we don't cut make big cuts in public spending?

Councils are already talking about dropping 25,000 jobs due to loss in money from government
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8528836.stm

Birmingham council talking about losing 2000 jobs in the next financial year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/8508023.stm

Education is also taking a hit with potential job losses due to governmnet cuts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8513807.stm

All these people and others like will all need basic welfare support.

Should the country keep paying the generous welfare payments and let state workers lose their jobs?

What else would you suggest? Keep the printing presses going, devalue sterling even more and end up like Zimbabwe?

The golden years have been wasted. Brown never put any money away ready for the bad times, instead he spent it all, cashed in our gold reserves when gold was at a low price and borrowed heavily, plunging the UK further into debt.

Wub

Like I said....its testing the waters. At the moment its talk....and the media are having a feeding frenzy.

Nothing stays static forever. If there is a shake-out, jobs wise, then its sad of course...but its happened before and it will happen again - and the world will keep turning.

Its a big, competitive world out there...and as uncomfortable as it sometimes is, we have to move with the times and be as realistic as we can be - and as understanding as possible, because a lot of people are going to find things very uncomfortable over the next few years.

I'm in education myself. And I know (and have the statistics somewhere..) that for every lecturer, professor, instructor or teacher actually delivering the goods, there's between five and ten pen-pushers, administrators and 'managers', talking the talk but certainly not walking the walk.

Can't imagine they'll be missed !

formula

A bit like the NHS then. I hope your job stays safe. I think it might be some of the less known universities that suffer more from job losses and those teaching at the so called "English Colleges". Those people seem very unsure if their jobs will remain with the Tier 4 (student visa) changes.

Wub

Thanks for that formula - fact is, my university is expanding year on year due largely to the fact that 46% of the population are under 25! And, the government over here pays for all tuition and subsistence fees for its young people - no student loans or debt mountains for these fortunate youngsters.

What's wonderful is that when they enter the world of work, there's absolutely no debt....and ....they're guaranteed a job, a pension plan, training and post graduate study should they wish to continue.

Free, gratis and for nothing.

I wish my own kids could say the same.....

dunroving

They're not potential, they are actually happening already (early retirement, voluntary redundancy), but there will be more next year. It's a sh*tstorm waiting to happen.

Wub

Check out the Middle East - Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Al Ain, Bahrain and Qatar all have higher education facilities as does Saudi Arabia.

With high numbers of under 25's, and an increasing preference for staying within the region rather than accessing Western institutions, there will very likely be something suitable to go for - should the worst happen.

Pay and conditions are good...though it can be frustrating at times...

BristolUK

Are you misunderstanding deliberately? I said not part of the application. If there is a partner they should be part of the application. If they have been omitted from the application then an investigation would result in them being included.

The situation I am describing is where someone else is in the household who could be a friend, a relative or aquaintance. They are not on the application but for the Housing element of a welfare benefit claim their income details will be needed.

The person applying has to ask and pass on what is private to the other person and that could put a strain on the relationship. A tax credit application doesn't do that...a welfare benefit application does.



WTF

Whatever gave you that idea? I said I worked for DHSS/DSS/DWP. It appears there's another difference you don't follow.

You also seem to have missed the fact I live in Canada.

suninspired

I've really enjoyed this thread and gained a lot from it. Mostly good contributions with a few ankle-yapping distractions thrown in for good measure.

Stormer999

To keep you all nice and jolly our hard working honest members of the BIG house of thieves have just settled for a mere £1k rise in base rate earnings to compensate for their loss of expenses
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8550850.stm

Wub

Its sooo predictable though don't you think?

Award themselves (via a quango) a pay-rise; ensure that its not offensive enough to create a storm, the issue disappears off the front pages and a 'spin', is produced a few weeks down the line using language like 'very moderate', cost of living indexed' and other,seemingly inoffensive explanations.

Well, the banks did it - they awarded themselves a fat cat slap on the back...so why not?

Its a bit like sending your money to feed the world and then discovering that 90% of it was spent on buying weapons....

formula

It seems mad making cuts in education. We need education!.

No plans out yet as to what welfare payments Labour propose to cut, they won't be revealed until after the election. Labours plans to cut the NHS are being leaked though.

"Hundreds of NHS wards to be shut in secret plans

Norman Lamb, the Liberal Democrats’ shadow health spokesman, said the scale of the cuts to hospitals was likely to be “vast”, with potentially “hundreds” of wards closing.

He said: “The Government will be desperate to avoid these cuts ahead of an election. We could end up with the threat of cuts to services being a key issue in the election campaign. The electorate will feel conned if they come out after the campaign.

“It is hard to judge the scale of this but it could be vast. It could be hundreds [of wards]. The savings they have to achieve are enormous. What has emerged in London could be the tip of the iceberg and the public is unaware of the scale of potential cuts.”

Mike Penning, the Tory shadow minister for health in London, said: “I see no reason why these reports cannot be published before the election. Labour must be straight with people about the cuts that they are planning to make to their local NHS.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...ret-plans.html