What do I think? You are seeing it right! Add 3rd generation to the approprate section...and mention the increasing taxation imposed on the rest of us who are supporting the burgeoning sink estate scroungers in their indolent, junk food gobbling, ale and crack consuming, Jeremy Kyle watching crap lifestyle.

Now we hear that the Labour Party has no real intention of curbing immigration into this crowded island nation of ours as the people involved are those most likely to vote for them in the dueness of time.

Welcome to Brown's Britannia and the legacy of not so lucky thirteen years of the *!@-ing Labour Party

I think whichever party had been in Power, is going to be in power, the level of degradation in the system/unfairness/ridiculous pooring of money out to those who can't be a**ed looking out for themselves, would be exactly the same.

Basically it is all topsy turvy.

Okay...when you say tax credits, are you including Pension Credit which is not a tax credit in the same sense as Working Family Tax Credits that supplement wages?

I ask because Pension Credit is not the same thing at all. The name was chosen to try to avoid the stigma associated with claiming a benefit.

It is a means tested benefit designed to prevent people falling below a certain level, just like Income Support.

No party calls for safety net benefit levels to be stopped.

Tax Credits assisting, as they do, people on high incomes are a different matter.

You don't have to be working to get tax credits. In fact the way it was set up, the less you work and don't save, the more tax credits you get. It was a crazy, ill thought out idea

I mean all tax credits - child tax credit, working tax credit, pension tax credit. They are all benefits. Whatever party gets in, has got to make some massive cuts in spending as investors won't lend to the UK at the same rate as EU countries now as the UK is now a risk of defaulting. Government borrowing got out of control and our annual benefit bill is out of control. There are already cuts being made with jobs in education, councils and departments, but does anyone to expect Brown to announce the benefit cuts before the election? He won't want to lose his voters.

I expect some help will be given to the elderly who are really poor but as they are moving the retirement age up, I would have thought the benefit age for the elderly will rise too. Not sure what conditions will be attached to any benefit help either.

The EU can't help as the EU PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain) are in trouble and need help. When you realise that investors will only lend to the UK at the same interest rate as Italy, you realise what a bad way the UK is in and why public spending HAS to be cut.

It's all very well saying safety levels can't be dropped, but where will the money come from? Brown can't keep printing more money, he has already devalued the pound.

The bottom line is, the government can't pay out if they don't borrow, but they already have massive debts to pay back.

What I actually said was The resource I mentioned and gave the link for is not Pension Tax Credit. What used to be called Minimum Income Guarantee (previous names Income Support, Supplementary Pension, National Assistance) is now called Pension Credit. It's nothing to do with Tax and it has everything to do with having insufficient income to live on. Hence the stigma. There is no stigma attached to other tax credits and that's why they chose the suffix Credit; to remove the suggestion of it being a Benefit - even though it is.

All sorts of circumstances are considered for Pension Credit that are not a factor in the other tax credits.

You say they are all benefits. That is only true in that they are of benefit to the individual receiving them. They are not State Benefits as in what people generally know as those paid by a Social Security Office - formerly Dept of Social Security and now Dept for Work and Pensions.

That's the difference.

As much as politicians want to control spending, it is highly unlikely that you will find any suggesting low income pensioners should have their support stopped.

Tax credits are payments for the poor who don't meet the basic requirements (set by the government) to look after themselves/their children. Regardless of what government department pays these benefits, the money comes from the taxpayer, are income based and are welfare payments.

You seem to be confusing tax credits with child benefit payments. Child benefit payments are given to all families regardless of income. Tax credits are related to income and are used as top up payments for the poor.

What I said was
"I expect some help will be given to the elderly who are really poor but as they are moving the retirement age up, I would have thought the benefit age for the elderly will rise too. Not sure what conditions will be attached to any benefit help either"

I should imagine that more will be required by those on child and working tax credits, to support their own families. The rules are very loose at the moment with all too many not wanting to work/work more hours because "it affects me tax credits".

I see. So the tax credits given to people on incomes exceeding £50k (or even higher) are for the poor are they?

You appear to misunderstand the difference between tax credits as incentives and state Benefits for people at absolute minimum levels of income.


You're right, I am confused. I said nothing about Child Benefits.

But you are really missing the point that tax credits are (mainly) incentives paid to workers (not poor ones) while Benefits like Income Support and Pension Credit are mainly paid not to workers and are intended to provide a guaranteed minimum level of income.


So far, in answer to a question from someone wondering what minimum entitlements they might expect in the UK you have suggested that the minimum income benefit rates might be stopped and that retirement age benefits are something of an unknown.

The 'age' issue is very well addressed on the link I provided with clear information about who is affected and while successive governments have amended rates of income tax, tinkered with VAT and tax rates on booze and fags, not a single government has ever stopped or even reduced benefit rates for people on the very minimum levels.

The conditions attached to the Pension Credit are also very clear. There's even a calculator that estimates the level.

It's interesting that you realise that pension credits are welfare payments but are in denial about child tax credits and working tax credits being welfare payments. All types of tax credits are welfare payments.

Tax credits only came in the last few years and are welfare payments for those that don't look after themselves or their children. Thats why they are income assessed. They are a socialist idea - all people get the same regardless of if they work just a few hours or not at all. Before tax credits, we worked to keep our own families.

As I said, the country could never afford them. Gordon was borrowing for welfare payments in the good times when we had a good economy and China was making things cheap for us. Now we the bad times are here, the government have no savings, have massive debts and interest to pay back, are still borrowing money, are printing off their own sterling and for the first time ever, income tax taken is less than benefit payments. You do the maths.

Yeah , lets let em starve!! I mean of course it's all their fault they can't look after their families..

Most sensible people generally consider 'welfare' payments to be those that help people at low levels of income.

May I suggest you go to a few people earning upwards of £50k and tell them they are "on welfare" and see what sort of response you get.

And then tell them they don't look after their children.

Call me Mr Dumb here, but how can you afford a car if you are on benefits?

The "sensible people" will realise they are applying for welfare payments, when they fill in forms asking the government for financial help for their children, based on the parents income.

Those on "upwards of £50k[sic]" will get £10 a week child tax credits if they have a child. Double that if they have a child under one year old. Those who earn over the government poverty limits, will not this welfare payment. Parents with children don't have to work to get child tax credits. This money is meant to be spent on the children but as it is given to the parents, there is no control on what they spend it on. On the benefits sites, you will see parents start to struggle financially when their youngest turns 18 and their child tax credits and child benefit payments end. It can also alter their housing benefits (LHA) and council tax benefits if that child (now adult) still lives with them.

Working tax credits payments has an income limit of something like 17k? Only one parent has to work something like just 30 hours to get these extra welfare payments, while the other parent doesn't have to work at all. A single parent only has to work 16 hours to get these additional welfare payments.

None of the above alters the fact that the government couldn't afford to pay them in the good years and now the bad years are here....... Whatever government gets in is going to have some very hard choices to make, not only with the welfare payments but with all the additional state worker jobs that have been created. Councils will be getting less money from government and they will have to make staff cuts too. What will the next government (either party) choose? Lower welfare payments or job cuts???

Sadly, many firms have paid low basic wages as they know the government will provide welfare top-ups. It's a mess.

In the mid 80's, he tore his cruciate whilst playing recreational football. He spotted an unlevel drain cover (council repsonsibility) outside his house and said he tripped over it damaging his leg.

He got legal aid to sue the council and claim damages.

After a few medicals (paid for by the tax payer) he was declared disabled and given a mobility allowance, hence the car.

Sounds too unreal to be true, but believe me, it is.

yeh like vic has quoted it is true!! about 24 yrs ago i lived near a family of 5 plus wife (she used to work in the social before having the tribe) they had large house etc plus the family car was supplied inc mot,s etc he was on some form of disability and could never make enough income to provide for them all (he told me to use the system legally and i could come up trumps as well!!) if i can only get 70 euros extra pw with my wifes pension of 80pw i would stay in spain!!!!!!

You are still likening welfare benefit payments for people at lower income levels with the various credits which are incentives for people above.

You refer to poverty limits but whether you use Income Support levels or the other ones based on levels as a % of earnings, such things are at the lower end of incomes and do not refer to income levels at whcih people may get the various credits. Poverty levels are much lower than the incomes of people qualifying.

You might accurately describe it as a subsidy just as people might get a subsidy on paying a pension contribution. That would involve form filling and giving income details too. But a welfare payment?

As I said before, the real welfare payments won't be cut. There may be some tinkering with other subsidies but people on Income Support/Pension Credit won't see any drop in income.

I won't disagree with that.